PTVPartner Warning

Thanks Paul for inviting me here, and to be able to point out some major red flags we see with this program. Most of what I am going to share comes from an interview that was done with the admin of this program, Garrett Rainier.

The first red flag is this statement of his, and I quote: "The reason we selected these two processors (Liberty Reserve and Perfect Money) to begin with was to allow members the most anonymous venue of participation. Like it or not, most of the world is of an oppressive nature. Governments like control. The majority of HYIP participants don’t pay taxes on the money they earn in this arena. Governments don’t approve of this and attempt to cause problems for Members and perhaps at some point ourselves. So an anonymous entity was expected to be preferred. We personally do not want to participate with any vehicle that will cause undue scrutiny on our endeavors or those of our members."

Any time you have an admin telling you that governments are oppressive and could cause their members and them problems, and undue scrutiny on themselves is a major red flag. If you are legal, you don't worry about regulatory scrutiny.

They have announced that their main thrust of advertising will be on work-from-home sites, click-to-pay sites, and MLM sites. Now ask yourself, they claim to be this investment program, so why would they want to advertise on these specific sites instead of the normal investment sites? This is to keep from drawing the attention of the authorities to their program, but would if they were advertising on the financial sites.

Here is another major red flag, and I quote: "We have made some decisions regarding AP and STP. Since they are not offshore and potentially can cause challenges for us with respect to their government’s decision to allow or disallow participation in programs like ours. According to our terms of service, you are responsible to determine if your government will allow you to participate here or not. We are not required to uphold a KYC policy. However, if your government does not allow you to participate, then don’t. We would prefer you to remain out of our program than participate here and cause problems. We are not going to police this. What we are going to do is protect ourselves, this program and those that are in compliance."

I'm sure you recognized some of the issues I said were red flags, but the major one is this: As an investment company you cannot absolve your responsibility of complying with the KYC rule and force that on the customer by fiat. Well not if you are real and legitimate. Of course any investor should look into this being legal in their country, but that also means this investment must be registered in that country as approved by the agency that oversees investments. Here in the U.S. that means the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission).

To sell any securities allowing U.S. citizens to invest, the offerings must be registered with the SEC, and also with each State's security agency charged with this responsibility. So all you have to do is check with EDGAR, which is the SEC's database of all registered securities approved for sale by the SEC. Another red flag is the myth of being offshore elmiinates the need to be registered in the country from which they solicit customers. It makes no difference where the organization is registered. If they sell to one U.S. citizen, they must be registered and they are not exempt from U.S. laws or law enforcement.

When the reporter who did this interview gave his intro, he said this, and I quote: "I am a bit more enthusiastic about this program than many of the recently opened short term programs I could compare it too and would not be at all surprised if we see bigger things from this one and see it run for that bit longer than such programs usually go for." Now what is striking about this statement is the admin in the interview says they will be around for the long haul. I guess the intervewer is not as optimistic about them as the admin is on this point.

Like everything, you must do your due diligence before investing in any program. There are enough red flags flying here to tell me this program has major issues, no matter what they say in their hyping this program. They also say this program is drawing a lot of people, but their website is barely registering with Alexa. It does not mean this cannot get traction quickly because it could. We just see a lot of hype with very little to back it up, and they have all the trappings of a classic HYIP Ponzi scheme.

They also claim this is a private placement offering, but this is limited to just 100 people if this is true. You also have to be a 'qualified' investor before you can participate in a true private placement. So what does "qualified' mean? It usually means that you have a gross income of at least $250,000 and assets excluding cars of $1 million dollars. I'm sure that everyone reading this is a 'qualified' investor. LOL. Another major red flag.

It is your money and you can invest in anything you feel is right for you. All we can do is warn you of things we see with this program that warrant a thorough due diligence review before reaching your decision. I hope this information has been of help to all of you, and you know how to spot some red flags you didn't know about before.

please send me information abaout lahores.job on line
I don't know is true,real job o fraud.
they offer free website.please advice to the public
that specialty merchandise corporation is lie.
I am trayin to get my monet back from them.
tank you very much

att.
sandra almonte

The problem here is that, similar to pump and dump schemes, there will be "outsiders" providing testimonials as to the validity of this plan.

The psychological conflict will be: are these people liars or does this program really work.

A number of people will choose the second option because of they don't believe the first.

But there is a third option: those providing testimonials are simply mistaken. Ask those Madoff investors who now find out that it was all a sham.

HI PAUL:thank you for the report! I hope it iS ok to GIVE A SPECIAL THANK YOU to LYNNDEL Edgington of EAGLE RESEARCH ASSOCIATES for all their hard work to get me the facts on their e-mail fraud report.with my old system they had to find a way that i could down load their report which with their hard work i was able to!so thanks to all it was a real eye opener and i'll be keeping that report on file. everyone should view it.
as always have a great day.
KEN

Paul, i have gone in 3 times to request the email fraud report and every time it won't process it be cause I did not put my phone # in. You state that we don't need to but it isn't working that way for me.

Plus if the people who were mistaken start to entertain the possibility that they were mistaken AND have recommended the program to other people they now have the potential pain of letting people they brought into the program know that they were wrong – whereas simply holding onto the belief that the program is real is much less painful in the short-term.
Sorry… forgot to say great post – can't wait to read your next one!

Joni: Sorry for all your problems. In the phone line just use a zero (put in as you would a real number) and it should work. If for some reason that still will not let you submit, then E-mail me directly: eagleresearchassoc@cox.net, and I'll make sure you get the report.

I am having our web team look into why it wouldn't let you complete the request from our website contact Email address.

If anyone else has the same problem, just E-mail me direct at the addy above.

Thanks for the info on PTVPartner. I read the info that was provided on it, but when you click on any of the links provided, the information doesn't appear on the screen until you escape out of the screen. Then the information fills in up upon exit. You might want to look into that to see why that is happening.
Lorraine

Thank u Paul & Lynndel for responding so quickly to my query. The zero's did the trick. I used them for the area code also. thanks again Joni

I have a question about a business I saw advertised a on TV a while back. Has anyone every heard of Anthony Morrison's Advertising Profits From Home? Has anyone tried this?

I am invested with PTV Partner and so far no problems. They have missed a payout yet. They gave a wonderful Halloween party at their chat room. They just gave away cash to five people in a name the chat room contest. They in the process of building a new website. I put in money that I would normally purchase lottery tickets with so it money I can afford to lose. Also they have 24 hrs support in there chat room. So far a great program.

Surfbandit:

I am sure they are very quick to pay right now, or they would die on the vine. All HYIP scams pay initially (PIPS, FLO1, FLO2, P-2-P, TroyBank, Kisntell, SI-Solid Investment, 7-Forever, Russo, VIP Invest, and I can name more but you get the picture. It is after several months the problems start, and the excuses begin. Glad to see that you only invested what you could afford to lose.

What will be telling is if they are still around 6-9 months from now with no problems paying the members. Of course they tell you where they are located with a "rea"l physical street address, all the jurisdictions they are licensed and registered in, and bio's of all the members of the invetment team, right? Time will tell, and the number of new members is slowing down dramatically, which is not a good sign for future payouts.

Definitely scam! Do not invest it! Believe me I have know what the HYIP is like…and it always come and go!

There is in fact a group named PTV that is involved in the activities stated on PTVPartner's website. There are many people in financial need and there are HYIPs that have been running for years. But I agree one can only judge 6 – 9 months down the line. The various articles on the website show to me that this can't be an ordinary scam, if it is one.

Hi Paul,

I am also a member of PTV Partner and have not had any missed payments to date.

I would like to ask if anyone knows of a HYIP that is NOT a risk/'Scam?? I have joined another HYIP which has been going for about 3 years, so it does have some "runs on the board", however how can you tell which is Ponzi and which is not….or are they all dodgy.

I would really like to hear members comments on this subject.

Kind Regards
Jean

I am also a happy member of PTV Partner (or PTVPartner) since early Sept 2009.

I draw your attention to the fact that even the administrator of the program encourages people to recover their investment principle as soon as possible, then all future risk is with "house money" (ie. profits generated from the program).

Wouldn't this kind of encouragement kill a ponzi scheme quickly?

Yes, it would. So why on earth would the admin of such a program say such a thing?

Tell me, how can a program sustain payouts when the majority of members are in profit (ie. have their initial deposit back) within 40 days?

The answer, by your logic, is that membership deposits would have to DOUBLE every month in order to sustain such payouts that have been made. Yet, as you clearly state, membership is not growing all that much, thus neither are new deposits into the program.

>>> Bottom Line: New member deposits are not be enough to sustain the rate of payout that this program makes. Period.

So how on earth do they make their payments, you ask?

The only possible answer? That this is no ordinary program. That this is no 30 day "HYIP" Ponzi scheme. That this PTV Partner has actual sources of outside revenue (as in – money coming into the program that is outside new members with new deposits). If you did a little more "research" and "due diligence" you would know exactly where these outside revenue sources are.

There is no other way that a group of members well into profit in just over a month can continually be paid over and over again. There just isn't enough new member money coming in to support this claim, as shown by their Alexa ranking.

Thanks for your research to help prove this point!

Frozen Bank Account:

While they do tell you to pull your profits out as soon as possible and play with their money, they also encourage people to roll-over their interest to increase the payout in the future. They know that once people start seeing returns on their investment, they will not take it out but roll it over. So this is an easy sell. It would be interesting to see just what % of the people in PTVPartner rolls over versus takes their money out when available. My guess is 10% or less take it out when it is available. They might early on, but not after a few payouts.

Another issue is you really don't know how many members there are, how they are really 'investing" your money, and you have no prospectus tellling you how your money is invested. You only know what they have said in their initial marketing material.

From some of their literature I have read, they indicate they make loans to people and companies who need the money, and they obtain a high rate of interest on these loans. They do not bother to say just how high this interest rate is on this loaned money. They could actually be 'loan sharking' but no-one knows if they are or not. In essence they could be a criminal enterprise by loan sharking, and you don't even know it

When a company lets you decide what PT stands for doesn't really give me any convidence in their legality. Of course they allow you to do this when a company is not registered or licensed as required by law.

Treat it like the lottery you might just win! I am in this program and is in profit. I have maxed out the first two investments the 10 day and the 20 day and is working on maxing out the 30 day. So I get $25 every 10 days and $125 every 20 days and once I max out the 30 day I will earn $900 every 30 days. I haven't missed a payout yet most were paid out in less than 24 hours. I joined in October and is enjoying the ride. By the way I have lost more money playing the lottery and haven't lost any with PTV Partner.

I too am a satisfied member with PTV and have been investing with the HYIP industry for some time now. You just have to remember that when you invest take out your principal first then reinvest always taking out some along the way. This way you are never really a loser do this with about 20 programs and you will have the odds on your side.

People will express their opinions based on their past experiences, and whatever they see in the present that in their minds is a similiarity to something they have seen in the past. Look hard enough and you will find every range of opinions from A to Z — and the point of it all is??????

Of course there are predatory governments around the world that tend to take a harsh view of private free enterprise, and the US is well known to be one of the worst in that respect. Sure; if PTV Partner sent official representativess into the US to do public solicitation, and/or otherwise directly promote itself to US citizens; the Feds and most States have laws against such actions. If a US citizen goes out and finds PTV Partner on their own; they would be well advised to conduct themselves responsibly according to the laws of their jurisdiction — the same applies to everyone everywhere.

There are no doubt many private independent businesses all around the world, that if they were to register themselves with the US SEC; they would be subject to so many regulations that it might not be practical for them to even exist. Yet in a free environment they can succeed, prosper, and provide good value to their clients.

That is really all that needs to be said. Anyone who is fearful and doubtful should not invest here; take your time, watch and learn, and if in time you feel differently; then is the time to invest only what you feel perfectly comfortable with.

PTV Partner Page

It has been a wonderful trip on the PTV journey. To date we have over 5,400 members. Our growth has been steadily rising and we are fast becoming the number one program on the internet anywhere. There is No Doubt we are living up to our claim as the Ultimate High Yield Asset for your Offshore Financial Portfolio!

First, we would like to welcome all our new members. We want you to be comfortable here. We strive to provide Unrivaled client support. We have four options for you to receive answers to your questions. The most immediate way is to register and sign into our chatroom. There are moderators on duty around the clock to answer your questions and provide direction. The chatroom is free to join for members and non-members alike. The second way is through our support ticket interface. These tickets are normally responded to within 4 hours and they can be accessed from inside your account or on the website home page. Support Ticket access is available to both Member and Non-member as well. The third way is through our Private Forum. Moderators and knowledgeable members will happily assist you there, though no particular timeframe can be given. The forum is private, but once again, registration is free and available to all who register.
Please use whichever means is best for your situation. The last method of communication but certainly not least is our blog.

Our blog is in the process of being restructured and will be upgraded over the next few weeks. You will see many changes as well as new articles and sections at our blog. If you have writing experience and would like to become part of our blogging opportunity, please contact us at support@ptvpartner.com.

We will attempt to send out daily updates and news through email as well. For today we'd like to direct you to a blog article about PTV one of our members directed us to. We were quite pleased with what was said and would like to direct your attention to it as well.

"What makes PTV such a great program?
Let me quote one very informative post in ASA forum regarding this program as follows:

“It took me quite a while to dig up information on PTV's business model other than what I found on their website, the forums and from Garrett himself in the chat room. I won't make a recommendation until I know enough to participate myself. I have to know as best I can and especially 'feel' the opportunity is right before I say anything to anyone. I don't jump into things until I've checked them out fairly thoroughly. I'm careful and that's why I'm well in profit overall even though only online since June of last year.

The reason I like PTV is because their business model is what I did for over 3 years when I lived in Geneva, Switzerland. As a junior account manager for a VERY private, very exclusive Swiss investment bank, I was able to see and be involved in how the super rich handled their funds. Some of our largest clients used their money for very (and/or reasonably) secure capitalization to other private individuals, business entities and governments. This was back in the late 70s and early 80s. They too (these private clients) belonged to a very exclusive and private venture group of many multi millionaire individuals – who often worked together as a larger group for the really big investments. For anyone other than the very wealthy, access to this environment has always been impossible. Until recently.

Everything I've read about PTV as well as my other investigating online about them and about private lenders of large funds, leads me to believe that this is one of that group – or a similar one. The language used, the phrases, the explanations and descriptions both on the website, postings in 2 forums, and verbally in the chat room, sound exactly as I would expect from one of my former clients. Having experienced that level of investor first hand myself (as an account manager), that is why I've been seeking a way to get sufficient funds myself to be able to participate in that world as an investor. Still working on it, but getting there faster than I would have ever thought possible with a regular J.O.B.! LOL

The fact that Garrett has chosen to bring PTV to the fairly recent technology of online investing is simply unheard of and very welcome at this time of international monetizing difficulties. His timing could not be better and I believe he has the means and the knowledge to make this happen for the little investor. The returns can be huge.

There are VERY few online 'programs' that make me feel they are real and legit and sustainable. A private one I'm in is one, Gold Nugget is another. Now PTV Partners is the 3rd. Everything else out there that I've seen, been a part of, or investigated for investing into, has not given me this sense. Most everything else out there is simply a gamble with hopes of getting out more than was put in. Everything is a calculated risk, even PTV Some are much higher risk, others are reasonably low. Based on my experiences with very large investors, very large money, and how the international super wealthy sound and behave, I have more confidence in PTV than most anything else out there. It's more than just a gut instinct. My sense is also based on experiences and fact. This is how I felt when I started looking into my private venture and also checking out Gold Nugget, both of which I participated in very early on.

I am investing with PTV due to my fairly extensive background in exactly what they do. I have personally experienced (not participated in, unfortunately) that level of investing during the late 70s and into the early 80s. It exists and is extremely lucrative. Besides, what's there to lose? The minimum is only $10 Liberty Reseserve or PerfectMoney for the Intro. (we now accept StrictPay and the highly recommended GlobalDigitalPay as well)

Introductory: $10 – $250: 10% profit after 10 days
Advantage: $50 – $500: 25% profit after 20 days
Leverage: $100 – $2,000: 45% profit after 30 days
Prestige: $200 – $10,000: 90% profit after 40 days

Even $100 into the Leverage at 45% per 30 days is phenomenal and can grow an account very quickly, PTV will also have other ventures we'll be able to participate in. Projects he's putting together now and others that are almost ready to participate in.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I do not feel this is a HYIP 'program'. I believe this is a true investment opportunity that has the potential to succeed long term. You either believe or you don't. I do. And that is why this is the VERY FIRST time I have EVER 'promoted' anything online. You will probably never see this happen again! I am known to be very cautious, very careful and not frivolous. I am not of the HYIP mentality. I treat my online investments as a business, and approach everything I do in this arena with a business mind and with business discipline. In everything you do in life, there is always risk. Without risk, there are not great rewards. I'm looking for the great rewards and am willing to take a calculated risk to get there. My offline knowledge and experience is helping me do just that.
Have fun!”

They say:

“Compared to traditional investments, forex trading, affiliate programs or online HYIP, participation as a PTV Partner provides high returns with frequent cash flow. This is particularly beneficial in today's fast paced online environment where Partners may wish to pursue other opportunities which restricted, or long term, investments may hinder."
The number one advantage of participation with PTVPartner.com is…
"This Is A REAL, Private Placement Funding, Venture Capitalization Participation Opportunity!
…And Your Principal Is Guaranteed!!!"

How it works:

You deposit your funds and select a plan to participate in. At that moment, your funds are allocated to a particular pool of programs they have promised to Fund via Private Placement. On any given day, and perhaps several times throughout the day, funds may be allocated to the same, or different, pools as their back-end needs demand/require.
In the unlikely event any investment pool fails, principle funds that were allocated to that pool would be secured via their Principle Guarantee.

24/7 Live Customer Service, Live Chat Room, Game Room. You can join the chat room without being a member – ask your questions!

They have a modern new website, but navigation around the site can be a bit tricky at times – however, don't let that put you off as you soon get used to it. "

Please Join Us on the Adventure of a Lifetime!

chatroom: https://www.ptvpartn…/chat_room.html
blog: http://www.ptvpartner.wordpress.com

Twitter and Facebook coming soon as well.

Start the Experience … join PTVPartner and … Free your Life!!!

The Ultimate High Yield Asset for your Offshore Financial Portfolio!!!
Start the Experience … join PTVPartner to … Free your Life!!!

Well, 6 months into the program and no end in sight. All that is happening is the payments are made on time every time. Yes, I am a participant and not a small one. Every 40 days my payments are there for my withdrawal.

The name of the group is PT Group.. That is the formal name. PTV is a subsidiary of that group under Garrets administration. We are only a small part of what the PT group is. And that group has been around for more than a decade that I know of. I have had dealings with them before. LONG before PTV came into existence.

As soon as I found out that the PT Group was the entity behind PTV, I jumped. With both feet because i know the integrity of these people.

And I know the integrity of governments. They have none. A government wants your money and that is that. If you have signed up to give it to them (in the US that is the SS# contract you signed), then you are obligated to do so by law. It is up to us to learn and do our due diligence in ALL respects of investing INCLUDING tax avoidance – Evasion is illegal folks but you can avoid as much as the law allows and the law allows you to pay no tax – but you must know the law. See.. If the government had any integrity they would tell you that. They don't. That means checking out governments as well.. The US is a BAD place for a US Citizen to invest because the government will take at least 50% of your increases. Problem with that is- If you are a US citizen they make it against the law to do what you would like with your hard earned TAX PAID dollars and invest somewhere else. The US government is one of the most corrupt and criminal organizations on the planet.

We are talking about ponzi schemes… Well anyone done any due diligence on Social Security? Biggest Ponzi Scheme on the planet. Canada Pension is next. Right now there are 48 people in the US contributing to Social Security for every 52 people that are eligable to collect. And that is going to get worse as the bay boomers retire. In 5-8 years there will be 35 people contributing to Social Security for every 65 people collecting.. Does that sound like a sustainable program to you? Yeah.. the government will just ask the fed to lend them more money so they can pay it right? Well that is fraud on the surface and deep into the facts. Please tell me.. Who is more corrupt.

That right there tells me that governments are corrupt. Not allowing the citizens of their country that are SUPPOSED TO BE a free people to do what they'd like with their money. I'd say it's the government that is the scam. I also thank God that I'm NOT a US citizen.

Yes, there are red flags with PTV. First one is "too good to be true. " Yet they pay on a regular basis without the reliance on new money coming in. The increase in membership deposits is not enough to pay the returns so it has to be coming from somewhere.

Fact is the money helps to do what money should. Move product. Yes, there is a solid product behind this venture.. Come to the meeting and find out what it is. We buy it and sell it for more at this time.. And anyone who says 90% returns are not possible in 40 days, has never been in a buy and sell business.

I just bought some 95 watt solar panels from the factory. it took 2 weeks for them to be delivered and about another 2 weeks to sell them all.. I MORE THAN doubled my money on this purchase. I COULD have tripled it. Let's see.. My money doubled in about a month from a regular business practice that goes on every day. So buying and selling is where the money truly is.. And PTV has got that set up so it runs very smoothly. I fsomething costs $50 and you sell it for $150, then you earn an increase, right? Right. That is what PTV PArtners is all about.

So after 6 months + We can see that PTV is still going strong and still paying strong. I know this will be the case in another 6 months and another 3 years. Why? Because I know how business operates and how private placements operate. And I also know the integrity of the PT Group from dealings I have had with them before.

Use caution with all investments. Never invest any more than you are able to say goodbye to. And when dealing with HYIPS, ALWAYS diversify. Never keep all your eggs in one basket. And most importantly – Take out your seed capital as soon as you can – No Matter WHAT the investment. Look what happened to the DOw over the last couple years. It is back level with 15 years ago now and will crash big time come October 2011 or round about there.. No I'm not a prophet – I hope I'm wrong, but I also learn from history and history shows that the true depressioons don't start until 3 – 4 years after the big crash. There's the big crash, then a minor recovery Then a catastrophic crash. Just read what happened in1929 and compare the events of today. Almost identical. I'd say PTV is much safer than any stock market in the world right now. Even safer than Forex.

Don't take my word for it.. Figure it out for yourself. Do your Due Diligence. And you will find that the warnings here are not founded on anything but perhaps a bit of misinformation and On-shore investors thinking that they know how Non-US Investments work. Especially when they are only trained by the SEC and no other entities. I know the Canadian Securities License was a huge burden to carry because of archaic, stifling laws and the Canadian ones aren't as bad as the US ones. I know because I used to hold one. Learned the scam that they truly promote and dropped that permission to do an illegal activity like a hot potato. Yes – a license is permission to do something illegal, a torte, or a trespass Look it up in a law dictionary Blacks is best. – Selling securities is an illegal activity. Why? because you WILL steal from someone. Dow Jones has stolen about 1/2 the wealth of the United States (and the rest of the world) and that is just the loss in dollar amounts.. Never mind the inflation that has stolen the other half of all of our buying power.

Because the Stock market is speculation and the inflation rate is so high, in REAL dollars (corrected for inflation) there are VERY few who have actually increased their financial position through that means. Most are behind the 8 ball but they seem to be deficient in Math skills.

Look at it this way.. Invest 5,000 in the stock market in 1960. Over the decades the deposit has grown to $40,000. Have you experienced an increase? Well in dollar amounts. Yes. What about buying power?

How many Chevy's could you buy with 5 grand in 1960. The answer is 2. You could buy 2 mid sized Chevrolet Automobiles in 1960 for about 5 grand. What about today? A Chevy Malibu sells for about 20 grand (30 in Canada) right now.. so you could still only buy 2 Chevy's (1 1/2 in Canada). Have you made any increase? No you haven't.. As a matter of fact, the 2 malibu's would probably run you MORE than the 40 grand by the time you paid all the taxes and fees.

So is the stock market a scam? You bet it is. PTV is a MUCH better bet because there is a tangible product attached that is needed every day throughout the world.

More Musings from
The Stone Age.

Stone Age: Please enlighten all of us just who are the people behind PTVPartner since the only known entity is the admin. You did say you knew them, so please give us their names, the name of the parent company, their location and how long they have been in business. You know, things that can be verified as real, not fiction as you have written.

Things must be worse than I thought, because now we have had two of the major Promoter's posting here telling glowing stories of the people behind this, but failed to give their names. My question is are you the people behind this, and if so why not post under your own name, or are you just paid to do so?

As for Social Security being a Ponzi, good hype but not true. I have yet to see Social Security telling you if you join you will become a millionaire or billionaire over the life of your participation. Quite the opposite. Which means to me you don't even have a clue as to what really is a Ponzi.

I have seen this happen in every scam we have uncovered. There is always this major post extolling the virutes of the program, how honest the people are that are running this, and how they have done this before. BUT, not one shred of proof is provided for any of these glowing remarks. Then when the signups start to taper off, we see the type of posts that were made above by you and one view. Following the playbook script to a T.

As for registering with the SEC. If you are selling to U.S. citizens, I don't care where you are domiciled, you must register your investments with them to sell to U.S. citizens. The mere fact they haven't makes them illegal. That is not my opinion but the law.

As I said in my first post, this has a shelf life, and from what I am seeing it is about over. The only way this continues another 6 months is if the two posts above can convince more people to join. That's how a Ponzi works. When you cannot continue to get enough new people joining, they can't pay the first ones in the program and it collapses.

It is just a matter of time before this does collapse, and collapse it will. In fact, none of you can even prove PTVPartner is investing as they claim they are. You have no reports showing how much they invested, in what programs they invested, and the rate of return for their investment. The reason being is you can track this information, and it can be proven if they did or not. There is no way they are going to send you a report so it can be checked out to confirm those investments were really made and the return PTVPartner claimed was real. Real investments do this, and it is required by law.

Think because you are registered offshore it prevents you from the long arm of the law from U.S. authorities? Think again, it is a myth. Just in the past 3 months there have been over 5 cases where companies operating offshore were reached out and touched by the U.S. authorities because they were selling to U.S. citizens and not registered as required by law. And it only takes just 1 U.S. citizen for them to be able to act.

If I were you Stone Age I would do more than just muse, but actually try to write something factual; but you were amusing. Always find it funny when the rants about the 'evil' government are made trying to sound facutal, but are all lies instead of facts. At least you followed the playbook to the letter. Another sign this is about to collapse.

Would love to engage you, and one view, in a real conversation, but to do so you will have to: use your real names, give the names of the people who are behind this, the name of parent company, their location, their contact info, how long they have really been in business, and then we have grounds for a discussion. I just love the I know but I cannot tell comments. Guess this means they would have to kill you if you did reveal it.

But thanks for the musings, which is all it was. Next time try facts. More impressive, and gives you credibility.

Hello Lyndell.. As for the definition of a Ponzi – Paying old members with new deposits with no investments to really back it up.. This is a perfect description of the US Social Security system. You folks in the US are just about to watch it crumble as hyperinflation hits. No SS doesn't purport to make you rich, but it does steal your money through confiscation AND inflation.

As far as Who is behind the PT Group – i really don't know.. I just got a newsletter from the organization that gave me some very good advice when it came to structuring and financial planning. It lasted for at lest a year and then stopped. I was sad to see it end when it did – it was a good newsletter. When I learned that the same organization was behind PTV, I went for it. Maybe I should have due diligence'd it more, but I knew of the organization and trusted their "pitch." I haven't been dissappointed.

Why would they register themselves in the US? That would be unwise because it would then subject them to the laws of that land and those laws are archaic when it comes to financial planning.

You say your government isn't evil, yet you tell of the horror stories of them stealing even MORE of their citizens wealth (and the wealth of others that are NOT citizens) by doing whatever they can to shut down a program one of their citizens have invested in with tax paid dollars. i.e. money that has no further obligation to be taxed.

BTW have you read the history of the IRS attacking companies in Belize regarding similar business entities? They are left standing at the doorstep.. Belize in one country that has kept the US out of it's business. At least to the last of my knowledge. So in the infamous word of Buzz Lightyear – "CAN!!"

At any rate.. This is about PTV and their legitimacy. So far So good. That's all I can really say about it. Paid every time on time.

You will find that Stone Age is the Name of my boat. Everyone at TV ptv knows that. If you see her out on the ocean (we are headed west around the world) you make sure and stop by and say hi. We are right now in the Pacific Northwest preparing to sail around Vancouver Island. My family and I leave here in August for Mexico and points beyond.

My name is John. Some people call me Fred but I'm not hiding behind anything. I just know from paid plans and not small ones, that PTV is the real thing. I have no ties to the program other than I post some articles on their blog and I participate in the program. It's paying.. Why WOULDN'T I be happy about it? Why wouldn't anyone be happy that a program is actually doing what it says it's going to do?

And as far as the last update, they have paid out more than they have taken in.. So a There goes the Ponzi label for PTV.
I don't know about the 5 companies that were raided, but I'll bet they were selling securities that are regulated by the SEC. Your right, that's a no no. Not without registering.

Let's see.. We are using Non US based currency to buy Non US based product and then sell to Non US based entities and reap the rewards and increases of our efforts. It's funny what happens when you buy somethign and then sell it for more. Also – Please tell me – Where does the US gain jurisdiction? The only jurisdiction I can see is that a US citizen would then have to pay taxes on their capital increase at the rate dictated by the IRS – no matter where they lived in the world. Same as any other US based business entity. And that would be on the citizens shoulders to file and pay. Not on PTV's. If your not a US citizen, then you need to follow the tax laws of your country of residence.

If the US population were smart, they would have elected Ron Paul as their new President and there would no longer BE an IRS. But again.. another topic.

So there you have it.. My name is John, I live with my wife, Lucy (AKA Wilma) and family on a 60' sailboat and we are making our way around the world.

That's all there is to me. Oh and we are enjoying the gains we receive from PTV.

Thanks for your reply. It was fun to read.
John & Lucy
Aboard The Stone Age
Gulf Islands of Canada – For now….

John: Appreciate the response. No, the Belize government has not stopped the U.S. from going after companies registered there that are selling to U.S. citizens investments that are not registered with the SEC.

If this group is so good, then why is it that the majority of the members come from the U.S. not Europe? Seems to me that a company with this kind of track record in Europe would have the vast majority of their clients from Europe not the U.S. Since they are selling their investmens to U.S. citizens, it means they must be registered with the SEC, and with each state securities regulator in which they do business.

There is no way SS can be called a Ponzi. With Ponzi's in the beginning the paid out return is far greater than the investment put in. With SS you put far more in than you get out, thus not a Ponzi. I didn't say I liked it, nor approved of it, I just pointed out that SS is not a Ponzi. Glad to know you are aware of what a Ponzi truly is, but your argument that SS is a Ponzi defies logic.

The fact that the issue is even being brought up is, I think, argument #12 in the scammers handbook. Always point out how the evil government tries to keep the little guy down, and doesn't want him to succeed. Always love the rich vs poor class envy argument.

Funny how so many people have gotten super rich, that were poor, by investing in the stock market. Are there bad apples of investment programs that are approved by the SEC? Of course there are, but not like in the HYIP field where 99.9% are all scams. At least you have a prospectus, financial statements, real addresses, real phone numbers and real contact people to do your due diligence on. Funny how none of this information is available with PTVPartner. So much for openess. Wait…..I know they have to stay below the radar of the evil government agencies, because the governments don't want their citizens getting rich and they can't control it or tax it.

There is a simple reason why they don't register with the U.S. authorities. It would expose them as being a scam. I guess it is OK to rob peole wtih a keyboard instead of a gun, as long as you get yours. It won't be long until a lot of people are going to lose a lot. The question is how much longer before it happens? A possibility they will make it to May, but I wouldn't bet on it. Kind of depends on how many people bought into this is a group that knows what they are doing, how many people can claim they got paid, and how gullible poeple are to believe all of it.

Enjoy your sailing trip around the world. By the time you get home, I doubt if PTVPartner is still around. I do appreciate you giving us your name, and for your response. Stay safe, and I wish you all the best with your travels.

Hi StoneAge,

That is very interesting to hear that you were on their PT newsletter before PTV came to be online.
So from reading that newsletter did it give you any ideas on who these people are or where they may be located.?

Also you say,.."As soon as I found out that the PT Group was the entity behind PTV, I jumped. With both feet because i know the integrity of these people."

How did you find out that the PT group were the entity behind PTV if you don't mind me asking,? as that may give them some credibility if it was known that a legitimate entity was behind this.

Do you have any idea of where the Sillica mine is located that Garrett talks about at the meetings,? or could this be just a made up story.?

0k, any information that you can help with is much appreciated as i may join up here in the next few weeks.

Thanks

First, The PT group and PTV Partners are different entities. PTV Partners is an offshoot formed by Garrett and participates in one of the PT Group's projects. If you are unsure of what it is they are doing, listen to a meeting. If you are still unsure, Wait. Best way to ensure a program is true and real is to wait. After all, look at all those folks who invested in the stock market and have had all their money stolen. Yes, I'm talking about the Dow and every other market that plays speculation.

Yes, yes, there are many out there that have made fortunes in short periods of times, but any of the long haulers – have lost money hands over feet. Maybe not in dollar amounts but that 10k they invested in 1960 that is worth 400k today? Let's see – in 1960 you could probably buy a decent sized house for 10K. Today, if you lived in any developed area, you would almost need 400k just to by a home. Nanaimo, BC – AVERAGE home price $350,000. Vancouver BC Average Home Price $650,000 Winnipeg Manitoba average home price $300,000, Los Angeles California average home price – 1.2 million. I don't even want to think about New York or Toronto.

Yes, you can still get a $20,000 shack in and around the back 40 of redneck USA and Canada for that matter, but the folks who are buying these shacks often don't have anything in the stock market in the first place – So these properties shouldn't be included.

So has anyone really made any money on the stock market? No not in real spendable dollars. Yes, there are a few that do. Just like with Ponzi programs – there are a few who make some decent gains, but for the most part, they are all losers. After all, the Dow is almost as high as it was 15 years ago. That's progress for ya!!!

Here it is in all of reality.. Investing takes risk. Some investments have more risk than others. The more guarantees there are on investments The lower your returns are and farther you ought to run from them – why? Because when they fail, you will be asking the taxpayers of your nation to bail YOU out and that is wrong. This is YOUR risk youa re taking, not a cumulative risk shared by ALL citizens that fork over their hard earned money to an undeserving government. And if you feel your government is doing the right thing with all the freedoms and rights they are stealing everyday from unwitting citizens, then by all means continue supporting them. After all they sponsor people like:

Many people believed in a gentleman named Bernie. He "Made-off" with billions of other people's money and there is no sign of it ever being returned. Do you think his investments were registered with the SEC? I don't know, But if what has been said is true, They HAD to be. Americans lost Billions. Secondly it means that dealing with a registered security offers no protection whatsoever. Do you think those folks are getting their money back? From who? From where?

Here is the end of ends.. Nothing is guaranteed in this life. Except the preparations you make for your own survival and even that is only preventative and not specifically guaranteed.

I believe I mentioned in an earlier post – Money is NOT meant to make more money it is meant to move product. Adding value to raw materials is where our increases ought to come from. PTV Partners has that model. And clams theya re working same model. Is it for real? Honestly, I don't know. I DO know they haven't missed a payment yet (personal experience) and they have paid out more than they have taken in.

Who are the PT Group.. A bunch of Ex Pats that decided they wanted to set up investment programs and IBC's etc. for each members benefit. And to teach some other folks that were discreet enough about how to do same. I was lucky enough to have been able to partake in some of that advice. Do I know these people personally? no. HAve I taken their advice and won? Yes. HAve I taken their advice and lost – Yes.

Folks, it's all a gamble. Life is a gamble. Again.. If you are unsure about PTV, Don't invest. They don't need your money. I don't know how Garrett has set it up, but he assures me that it has been set up so that oppressive countries like the USA cannot do anything to jeopardize the project. So far so good.

Do I know where the mine is? No. I don't. Do I care? Yes, of course I do. I want to know where the mine is as badly as the next member of PTV, but I also know how Non Disclosure agreements work. DO NOT violate them or lose the benefits of the program. Not RISK losing, but lose. It's that simple.

It could be a made up story.. Truthfully the first thought that went through my mind was Bre-Ex. (They were registered too) Remember the gold mine in the Philippines that ended up being a huge fraud? Mid '90's I think? Yes, it sounds incredible. Yes, It sounds too good to be true. Yes, it has many "red flags" and could be mistaken for a Ponzi. So far it is paying and paying. This thread started about 5 months ago. Garrett has proven his worth so far. Paid every time, on time. And not just for me. For everyone involved. With more paid out than in.

Lindell:

As far as SS? And I quote you:
"There is no way SS can be called a Ponzi. With Ponzi's in the beginning the paid out return is far greater than the investment put in. With SS you put far more in than you get out, thus not a Ponzi. I didn't say I liked it, nor approved of it, I just pointed out that SS is not a Ponzi."

Ok.. So the SS sytem is a BACKWARD Ponzi. That makes it worse. Everyone will lose money instead of just some people. Still a bad investment and a GREAT example of how the government can do anything half as well for more than twice the money. They are thieves. Just like Bernie is, Just like Social Security is.

I'm done here. Folks – make up your own mind. Leave it for a year, then get involved in PTV. And don't spend any more money than you can afford to lose. In ANY kind of investment. Registered or not. Because the truth is, the only real way to tell if a program is for real and has longevity, is by how long it stays around. I think about Lehman Bro's and all the other banks that have crashed in the past year. . They were registered. Why didn't they survive?

Thanks for your wishes on our sailing trip, Lyndell. we will have a great time and enjoy ourselves. If you ever see our boat in your harbour – c/mon out and say hello.

Best on your endeavours.

Stone Age.

Gotta love it. When asked to tell who the players are behind PTVPartner, you know the people of PT, it never gets answered. You see you are not to challenge anyone to name them, you are just to blindly accept the statement they know them as the truth.

I am sure that Warren Buffett and Bill Gates could care less about their investment portfolio with such trivial things as where a mine is located they invested in. They just accept there is a mine, and where it's located is of no consequence. I'm sure they feel the same way about their other types of investments just accepting they exist; no proof required. Yet that is what we are supposed to believe about PTVPartner. After all you can't say where the mine is when it doesn't exist. You could actually look it up to see if it did exist or not. Just as you could about the people who are supposed to be owners of PT. So they have to remain anonymous.

But I was waiting for the old standby NDA agreement excuse. Yep, this is trotted out whenever they don't want to answer a question. Only one problem, a NDA is worthless. If a NDA was truly real, you wouldn't even know about the investment to begin with, as signing one means you could not discuss the program to anyone. Yet everyone is told about the program in spite of the NDA. Yep, gotta love those select NDA excuses.

Wonder what happened to Another View? Seems to have gone MIA after the drive-by post. Stone Age, if you plan on stopping at Newport Beach, CA or Dana Point Harbor, CA, let me know when. Might be able to drop by for a chat.

Quote "As for registering with the SEC. If you are selling to U.S. citizens, I don't care where you are domiciled, you must register your investments with them to sell to U.S. citizens. The mere fact they haven't makes them illegal. That is not my opinion but the law." Quote

Bernie Madoff was registered with the SEC, he's in jail but what good was him being registered mean people still lost millions!

Lynn: Garrett Rainier runs PTV Partner.

Lynn: Have you lost money in PTV Partner?
Lynn: Do you even HAVE money in PTV Partner?

I didn't think so.

I don't understand what the big deal is.
Do you know who runs your local casino?
We're talking about a measly $200 here.
It's only at risk for 40 days.
After that, one gets one's money back.
Plus interest.
Then it's 100% risk-free.
Pure profit with house money.

That's a better deal than anything else out there. Period.

Any venture capitalist would do an upside/downside comparison on this. Even Bill and Warren.
>> Upside: Potential to Gain $380 over and over again.
>> Downside: Potential to Lose $200 within the first 40 days.

Risk: Reward Ratio:
1.9 (first 40 days);
Infinite (after 40 days)

PS. It would be an administrative burden to provide full disclosure to every nickel and dime investor, PTV would need a call center to deal with the calls, hence it is only extended to accredited investors within the Group.

Now I know this will shock you, but Bernie was not "registered" with the SEC. Bernie was doing hedge fund trading, or so he claimed. That is controlled by another entity called the CBOT (Chicago Board of Trade) which is the register for all futures and options trading, which Hedge Fund trading is a part of.

The SEC does not do audits, but they hire outside contractors to do their audits. The audits are only as good as the information provided by the company being audited to the auditors. Bernie having been the former head of the NASDAQ knew this. He took advantage of the situation. The SEC can only respond to complaints. They are reactive, not proactive. Finally that has changed. But I do love how the defense of a scam is always to point out another scam as if that makes your scam legal.

No, I am not in PTVParter. So what? So why isn't Warren and Bill in PTVPartner since it pays so well? I mean, they like to make money like everyone else, so you would thingk they would be all over this one. Makes Warren's 30% per year look like chump change. If I were Warren and Bill, I would fire my investment advisors for missing out on this great opportunity. But then why not invest in GNI, Genius Funds or any of the other scam HYIP Programs? Poor Warren, here he could be making 30% a quarter, when he is only making 30% a year. What a dumb financial expert. I think you need to contact Warren and Bill and tell them about this great program called PTVPartner, and how much money they can make in such a short period of time. I know they will be grateful for you doing so. So don't delay, give them a call now.

So how do you know that Garrett is really Garrett? Other than the fact he told you so? So where does Garrett really live? What is the corporate address for PTVPartner, phone number, license and registration number? You mean you can't tell me?

Actually I do know the name of my local casino owner. Not only do I know his name, I also know the names of his partners and can read their financial statements; which means what when compared to PTVPartner? I think we are up to defense of a scam # 22 by now. When you can't provide facts, change the topic and compare it to other entities that have nothing to do with PTVPartner, but sounds impressive.

Accredited investors only? Oh my God. Almost fell off my chair laughing at that absurd statement. No-one is an accredited investor who is in this. If they were, they would never join. And no it is not "guaranteed." When they run, and they will, you will find out just how 'unguaranteed' your investment really was. But accredited investors only! What a joke.

It is just a matter of time before this crashes. As will all the other HYIP scams out there. They all have a shelf life, and the only way this one will make it past summer is to 'lure' more victims with false hope, dangling a carrot, and appealing to people's greed.

Still doesn't change the fact that if you sell investments to US citizens you must be registered with the SEC, in spite of Bernie Madoff. Appreciate the chat. Want to continue?

Nice try Lynn, lots of bait but you'll need to do better than that.

lol, why isn't Warren and Bill in PTV. That was one of the easier ones. Losing your touch 'ol timer.

Nice try Lynn, lots of bait but you'll need to do better than that.

Why isn't Warren and Bill in PTV. That was one of the easier ones. Losing your touch ol' timer.

Too funny. If this is such a great program, as you all claim, why wouldn't they want to be in it? They aren't against making money, especially at the rates they pay. Sure beats what they are doing now, but of course we know why they don't. They are too smart to fall for this scam. If this was real, they would have billions invested in it from every wealthy person in the world.

But I digress. This is nothing more than Flo all over again. Same pig, just a new dress and new lipstick. Same script, same programs, same rates of returns, and wouldn't be surprised to see the same perps behind it. In fact many of Garrett's statements are almost carbon copies of the admin for Flo. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

Then let's not forget the mail being sent to Vanuatu in the South Pacific, but Garrett says he lives in Belize in Central America. Hmm, let's see. Belize is some 15 hour flight from Vanuatu. Yep makes sense they would have their mail sent to Vanuatu and live in Belize. You people are too funny. By the way, do any of you really know what they really are investing in other than the hype they tell you? You know the mines they can't tell you where they are located BS.

Keep trying to make this sound and look like a new pig. If I remember correctly, the admin of Flo disappeared with millions. Will be intresting to see how many millions this admin disappears with won't it.

Paul, in a sense yes. But also to demonstrate how the most basic of information can be "missed" by the self-styled expert.

Using this question as an example what we currently see on your site is easily obtained very basic information about a program replaced by fallacy.

Lynn is giving template response. There are many errors which are compounded upon. It's lazy, or hidden agenda.

Lynn can be accurate, I've seen it in the past. Good information to act upon. Equally, when the "information" gets sloppy the holes start to appear. You can translate this struggle to deconstruct into an opportunity. Combined with my own research I recognised such an opportunity and put in four figures. Now well in profit closing in on five figures.

So you can use the misguided confidences of these "experts" to your advantage. You just need to keep an open mind, do your own homework in addition, and avoid their entrenchment and dare I say it, pride.

Jack: Thanks for the compliment you gave me above, but I do disagree that I am following a template. The only template being followed here is the paid "shills," or "promoter's" of PTVPartner.

It is not illogical to ask the question why aren't Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or for that matter any other high net-worth individual a part of this program. After all, we are told this is the real deal. It only stands to reason that if this is true, then any high net-worth individual would be in this program, but yet they are not. That speaks volumes about the validity of the program. I was also being sarcastic with the lame excuses being presented by the "supporters" of PTVPartner.

This is what Garrett said when interviewed about PTVPartner, and I quote:

"After watching the devastation that far too many programs caused for huge memberships and topped off by the ‘fall’ of e-gold, I decided I wanted to create a program of my own. I rallied for just that opportunity. With the backing of several of the Group’s members, approval was granted and I began.

After almost 2 years of work, formulating plans and working out the bugs and strategy of financial support from the backend, we began in January to put together the actual Web Presence."

So according to Garrett, in his own words, he wanted to create a program of his own, and he spent almost 2 years of work working out the bugs before he implemented PTVPartners in August of 09.

Amazing how much PTVPartner is almost an exact carbon copy of FLO right down to the pormotion, admin stories, and family history. Here are just a few of the similarities:

FLO offered 4 plans of 110%,125%,145% and 190%. PTVPartner offers the same with a slight difference in payout time. FLO’s admin often alluded to the idea that they had to avoid using the traditional forms of bank wires and fully verified methods of transferring money because the “authorities” were bogeymen and would steal your funds. Garrett mentions the same theories about not using payment processors in certain jurisdictions to avoid legal hassles.

The admin for FLO had a distinct southern accent. Garrett has one as well, and admitted to being originally from Georgia, USA. FLO’s admin told everyone he was in Belize, Central America. Garrett says the same thing.

FLO had Russian and Chinese mods and forum/chat sections. PTVPartner does as well. The FLO site had a constant stream of tropical beach pictures and phrases on the site to sell the idea of being wealthy and free to loaf all you want on beaches with pretty girls. PTVPartner has the same.

FLO’s admin said that they did not require to be licensed in the U.S. with the SEC as they were offshore. Garrett says the same thing. FLO’s admin continually sold the dream by mentioning things he wanted to do in the future. There is always some project here and there, and always something we can “take a look at.” Garrett is doing the same.

Just as the admin for FLO did, Garrett has lots of references to living the PT lifestyle on the PTVPartner site and talks about it in the chat room as well. FLO’s admin stated his family elders had blazed a path for his “career” in HYIP and all things offshore and PT. Garrett mentioned that his uncle had been an influence on him in the same offshore endeavors he aspires for you.

Well, as I had mentioned before this is nothing more than a re-hash of FLO, which Garrett has magically followed almost to the letter with just a few small wrinkles to make it look new. So much for his vaulted claim he spent 2 years working on this business model.

The Warren and Bill question is allowed, logical, and fair. The answer is one which makes sense to me and is one of the easiest out there. I refuse to mention it here because I refuse to believe you don't know it or can't see it.

Interesting idea on FLO part II. I suppose I could counter with the "too similar, who would be that stupid" argument. Then again it could be the old double bluff. Why don't you chase up the FLO people? Isn't that your business?

Jack: FLO shut down long before I formed Eagle. They are gone. Not sure why others did not complain and see if law enforcement would have done something. In fact, FLO was almot a carbon copy of OS Opps that also ran with the money. So PTVPartner is not new, contrary to what Garrett has tried to claim.

The odds of all these similarities is staggering. A couple maybe, but this many? There are just too many similarities between the two programs that it makes you wonder if FLO and PTVPartner are the same people doesn't it?

I do want to make one point, since you mentioned why we didn't go after FLO. People seem to have a misconception as to what we can do. It makes no difference what progam we provide information to our law enforcement contacts. It does not mean they will do an investigation or action will be taken. All we can do is provide information to the authorities. We do not have subpoena power, arrest power, or even have anyone answer our questions. It is up to the authorities to confirm and then take action if they feel it is warranted.

There have been cases where we did provide information to the authorities, they took no action, and the company did a runner. Now there are a lot of reasons why this could have happened, but it is out of our control.

The real question is how much longer before PTVPartner runs, joining all the other failed HYIP programs, or is raided and shut down by the authorities? It is going to be an interesting next couple of months.

Lynn, how long were FLO and OS Opps in operation until the first default on payment to their members?

You do realise you have presented an argument that totally precludes any potential for PTV being even remotely wholesome. Given the volume of questions you still have on PTV would you agree this can appear fanatical, even to the neutral observer, as fanatical as the shills and promoters you referred to in a recent post?

Jack, if my memory serves me correctly, OP Opps began sometime around 2002, and only ran for about 15 months before they ran. I think there payment problems started around the 10th month, and got progressively worse until they just ran. They could not get enough new people to join to keep the payments going. I have seen a lot of estimates as to how much money they ran with, but have no clue how accurate those figures were. So won't speculate.

FLO started in early 2004 and closed around October 04. They ran into payment problems starting around July and then stopped in mid to late September. Actually there was a FLO II, but it never got really going. Was too soon after FLO I, and FLO II never got traction like FLO I.

Why is it fanatical? I am merely pointing out inconsistencies in Garrett's claims that others don't want to address. What you do with the information is up to you and anyone else. My only goal is to make people stop and think, ask questions, and make an informed decision before joining or not. The same is said anytime I question the legitimacy of any program. I am called a Troll, Naysayer, Negative Thinker, Destroyer of Hope, Destroyer of Dreams, and all because I ask basic questions people should ask before giving anyone their hard earned money to invest for them. We have a list of Red Flags that if people would read and follow, they would save themselves a lot of grief. It never ceases to amaze me how much money people will send to an unknown entity on the Internet because they want to believe they can get rich for doing nothing. See you really don't know for sure that Garrett is really Garrett. You only think he is. What if he was the Admin from FLO? Would that make you trust him if you knew it? I hardly doubt it.

I just want people to stop and think before buying into all the hype that is touted for each and every one of these scams; and PTVPartner is a scam. It is just a matter of time before they run or get shut down. As I said before, it is going to be interesting to see which event happens first. The clock is ticking, and it will soon hit zero. Think of it this way. This is Russian Roulette, but the gun has all the bullets still in the chamber. Still want to play?

@Keith Woodward:
I agree with you Keith. So, which of the programs is paying at the moment?

I have followed this thread with a great deal of interest.

Lyndel has done a good job of demonstrating the wizard behind the screen here.

For that the promoters appear to chastise him, but are in reality happy for the public attention. they simply need the chance to trot out their scripts and refine them.

Some theoretical observations about fraud may be of use.

1. The primary story in a fraud has to center on how something transparently bad as a normal investment might nonetheless be very attractive as a gamble. This was Charles Ponzi original insight.

Here is what you would expect to see in such a scheme.

a) We will see references to playing with house money, taking out your return, etc.
b) We will see references to guarantees, as if mere words can remove risk. At law, guarantees only transfer risk but consumers have been educated poorly on this point and think a guarantee removes risk.
c) We will see real investments that failed because of real risk being denigrated as frauds.

2. But having a bad investment dressed up as an attractive gamble is not sufficient – there must be the constant allusion to possible regret and loss of phantom dreams. This is why some of the promoters of the scheme advise in public for people to wait – they know that this will push some people over the edge.

3. None of this is new, or even that interesting from a psychological point of view. However, the internet and payment processors have allowed money laundering schemes to proliferate using the hyip profile – this is a very real and serious problem.

By the same token of warning everybody that they *could* loose money, supporters have every equal right to let everybody know they also *could* make money. And they have made money, lots of it. Nobody has lost money.

(Yes, yes, I know you are anxious to throw in the word "…yet".)

It is not "Russian Roulette" simply "Roulette". All investing is a gamble (even whatever you are selling) but nobody is going to die. You are going to extremes and only pointing out some of the facts (instead of all the facts) to try to prove your point – which is that people could loose money.

Ok, we got it.

Now, are you going to acknowledge the same FACT that people could also make money, and are making money?

Lynn, so PTV are doing better than FLO but yet to reach the dizzy heights of OS Opps.

Inconsistencies are a normal part of life. There are inconsistencies in your latest post. Little things that don't make sense to the reader, lost in interpretation, not communicated quite right, and so on. You must be careful not to assume that because people have forged ahead despite the inconsistencies that that does not mean they have not addressed them. I would also be careful of assuming you know what people think. I've noticed the majority of your comments are either black or white, and life is very much grey. So, for example, rather than saying people "think Garrett is Garrett" why not "people feel there might be a chance that Garrett is Garrett". You don't know for sure yourself so why say the former rather than the latter. That says something about your balance in this, no?

It is fanatical because of the sheer strength of comment based upon observation that is still open to considerable interpretation in the abscence of sufficient facts. Just like the shills and promoters you refer to.

With all due respect calling PTV a scam, which ultimately may be the case or not, and Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun, is not asking people to "stop and think". You're being euphemistic towards their abilty to think for themselves.

Red flags: all opportunity in life has a red flag or flags. No red flags means we're still in the cave. So try not to enshrine red flags, either way.

Come now michael webster, aren't you being just a tad unbalanced? Lynne has not demonstrated the wizard, but he has presented an argument as to the possibility. There is a counter argument equally devoid of facts and therefore equally specious.

Michael: Great points, and all are important for people to understand. Thanks for sharing.

Anon: No, no-one "Makes Money" in a scam. You are trying to convince people to believe real trading is happening, and therefore your claim people are "making" money. The truth is you probably know there is no trading going on, and this is a scam; but in case you really don't, you have bought the lie.

It is an illusion people are "making" money. It is an illusion that real trading is ongoing. What really happens is you are "stealing" money from one group to pay another group until it comes crashing down. You are merely using a keyboard to rob a person instead of a gun.

But there is no-one "Making" any money in these scams, only "stealing" money.

I have received numerous requests to identify what I meant by Red Flag Warnings. Red Flag Warnings means stop, think before you act. Think of Red Flag Warnings as the flashing red lights at a railroad crossing, or a flag man waving a red flag to make you stop. Red Flags are meant to get your attention, and to think before proceeding.

On our website we have a link called Red Flags. Rather than just direct you to our website to read these Red Flags, while we would like the increased hits, I am listing them below:

A company says that because they are an Internet company the standard rules of being licensed and registered does not apply to them.

The company is basically anonymous as they use free website hosting, free E-mail services (yahoo, google, hotmail, gmail, etc.) instead of paying for a secure website or having an E-mail address with the company’s name in the address.

Your contact person only has a first name and is using a free E-mail address, not one using the company name.

The company has no physical address, phone number, or contact information of any kind.

The company is saying the returns are high yield, but there is little or no risk.

They say your principal (amount you give them) investment is “guaranteed,” or they promise a “guaranteed” rate of return.

They say they need to stay below the radar of law enforcement agencies.

They say the investment is special, that has only been available to the rich or wealthy until now.

They say the program is only available to a select few.

They say the program is a private investment and does not require to be licensed or registered.

Failure to provide financial statements, a prospectus, or details of the investment.

Any investment that requires only a small administrative fee, but promises a large return, i.e.: a $30 administrative fee, but will pay you $50,000.

The program is promoted as finally allowing the little guy to obtain the same financial products that until now were only available to the rich or super wealthy.

They claim the program is registered offshore (outside the United States), and therefore is not subject to the SEC Rules and Regulations. If they solicit U.S. Citizens (even if just one) they are subject to the SEC Rules and Regulations. See our Alerts & Hot Topics link Myths of Offshore Corporations for full details.

In reality it only takes one of these red flags to tell you if a program is a scam, but when you 2 or more, you should run the other way as fast as you can run.

Paul, no not like that. The Warren and Bill thing was simply an easy answer; no debate or argument needed.

The other point is more involved if only that both sides play on being economical with a premise. Lynn and Michael are presenting definitive conclusions on insufficient fact in order to condemn. The counter is just the same but in order to support. Either side can be convincing, but ultimately it's specious.

Take one of Lynn's flags: the SEC and solicitation. It reads good, sounds convincing, lots of posturing, lots of "subject to this" and "subject to that". Then you realise the SEC don't have jurisdiction in another country. Notice there is zero mention of how they enforce and penalise the foreign entity. Suddenly things become rather less simple. The Internet is essentially borderless, not a excuse in itself because borders of a type can be arranged, but it is mitigating. So with that why not penalise the US citizen? Why go to the trouble of crossing international borders and imposing US will on another country? Enter ethical debate.

The point being that if the SEC tell you "this is the way it is" when you are operating outside their jurisdiction, within the law of where you reside, and you're not a US citizen, you are perfectly entitled to say "no it's not" and to have plenty of support on your side.

So just how red is that flag now?

Once you realise by experience that these flags are not set in stone you will never look back. It's just a shame that many will believe unconditionally in these "commandments". Sure, they will make you avoid the scams, but also the genuine opportunities too, and this is the real violation of presenting debatable material as utterly undeniable fact.

Jack: There are plenty of examples how the US Authorities have gone offshore and had the people running these scams extradited to the US for trial. Guess you don't believe the SEC. I am merely quoting what the SEC, FTC, Secret Service, FBI, US Postal Inspectors Office have all said. You don't like it, take it up with them. All you have to do is a Google search and you will find many in the last 5 months alone where this has happened. You might want to start with Calvin Ayre. But if you want to believe the "MYTH" that being offshore prevents being subject to the US Authorities, be my guest. Only problem is it's not true. It is a myth.

But I do love your circle-jerk logic. Your comment regrading whether or not Garrett is really Garrett is a classic example of this type of logic. You see the problem is you can't prove that Garrett is really Garrett. You only have Garrett's word that he is indeed Garrett. No home address, no phone number, no nothing to confirm Garrett is really Garrett.

You also seem to misunderstand my point, and my reason for making it. Everyone who reads this blog has the right to decide for themselves if they want to invest in PTVPartner or not. They have the right to take the information I have provided and determine if it is of value for them to decide not to invest in PTVPartner or invest. I am merely pointing out the inconsistencies of what Garret has said and claimed.

You are certainly entitle to your opinion, as am I. I am not going to debate my points and opinions ad nauseum, as you seem to want me to do with your nuances, and parcing words.

There is no hidden agenda, it is black and white, PTVPartner is a scam. Just as you can't be a little bit pregnant, you can't be a little bit a scam. It is just a matter of time before they run, not if. The Red Flag Warnings are Red Flags for a reason. It is years of observing these scams, how they operate, and how they end. It is also what the feds say in regard to being offshore. It really makes no difference what PTVPartner does compared to any other scam. They all have their own elements. I was merely showing a comparison of what they said, to what PTVPartner has said, and how they are almost identical. I can assure you that PTVPartner's replacement is already on the drawing boards and being prepared to open in the near future. The only thing we don't know is what they will name it.

Lynn. Extradition? Where did that come from? I mentioned jurisdcition and things not being as simple as having jusrisdiction. Extradition is not jurisdiction and it is not as simple as having jurisdiction. So my comments were accurate. Why did you twist my comments Lynn? See how easy it is to manufacture your own debate to suit your own end? Once again, lazy, or hidden agenda.

Not sure where you're going with the Garrett comments. I can't prove, and neither can you. But I suppose I could, a process is available and a lot closer than possibly you are aware.

Opinions are fine, and nuances are important given the context within which we operate. It may be an oversight on your part but you do come across as presenting your opinions as fact. This is misleading, I'm just trying to address the deficit because I would prefer not to see potential, or perhaps more correctly the potential for potential, stamped upon. Of course this is not to say that ultimately your opinions cannot turn out to be correct.

You do not know that PTV is a scam. You think that PTV is probably a scam. You do not know. Please provide proof if you do. Not observation with interpretation. Proof.

No, I cannot provide proof that PTV is not a scam. But then I'm not announcing that it isn't. The so called burden of proof is with you Lynn.

Please stop misleading people. You may be surprised just how much they can work things out for themselves if allowed to do so – if given accuracte balanced material to work with.

The tone of the two shills, Stone Age and Jack, are fascinating.

Stone Age is the typical fake it till you make shill, but Jack's inability with english is a novel twist.

Shills generally perform the same role as a laugh track does for a comedy in providing social proof.

But shills like "Jack" that compose grammatically retarded sentences such as "the other point is more involved if only that both sides play on being economical with a premise. "

It could be that "Jack" doesn't speak English as a first, second, third or even seventh language. But, I don't think so because when he/she needs to be precise the words are found.

So what is "Jack"'s role and why the tortured use of language?

Again, I think like the laugh track, the occasional use of convoluted land impenetrable language is designed to have the mark think a) they are missing something and b) "Jack" is very clever, and c) the mark might be missing out if they ignore "Jack".

It is rude to say of "Jack" that his/her posting have no substance. But, rudeness is needed, from time to time, when dealing with predators.

I see Michael has reached the ridicule stage. That's ok, it means we're making progress. Sir, you're comments say so much more about you than they do me. But keep it up, we'll have you in balanced shape in no time.

By the way, why am I a shill?

michael:

Jack forgets that it is the responsibility of the program to "PROVE" it is legitimate, not those who challenge it as being legitimate. I guess according to Jack, because it is paying, means it is legitimate. That is not real due diligence. Well, it is to a shill of the program anyway.

I hear this from every shill of every program that call a scam that "I" have to prove it is a scam, but they don't have to prove anything. They conveniently forget I am not the one who is asking them to invest money with me. I am not the one who is running the program. Can you imagine Fidelity, or any other investment company, telling me that they don't have to prove anything to me their programs are legitimate, but it is up to me to prove they are not? It won't be long now until all of us will have all the "Proof" we need.

As I said, Jack likes to use the circle-jerk logic. He thinks it makes him look intetlligent and above the fray; when he is in the thick of it. These people need to devise a new playbook, because the one they are using is getting old and worn out. But then when you are trying to promote and defend a scam, that's all you've got.

Appreciate your input into this discussion. Great insight and to the point, as always. I am sure Jack's response will be another exercise in a search for a rational thought.

Jack:

In regard to your remarks concerning "Extradition," either you do know and are trying to obfuscate the issue; or you don't understand how "Extradition" works. For those that truly don't, here is how it works:

For you to be able to "Extradite" someone, you must show to the hosting country where the party resides you have "JURISDICTION" in the case, or the host country will deny 'Extradition.' So for the US to be able to "Extradite" anyone from a foreign country, they must show the foreign country they have "JURISDICTION" over the person. When that happens, then the foreign country allows the 'Extradition" to take place. Or put another way in case you still don't get it Jack, is it is a myth that being offshore keeps you from being subject to the laws of US authorities. See how easy that was to clear up for you, and wasn't manuractured at all. And no your assessment was not accurate at all as shown above.

Glad I could clear that up for you. But please do a Google search to see how offshore entities are not protected from being subject to US Laws and Regulations. Guess you are too afraid to do so, but somehow I think you already know it is a myth.

PTV just paid me a little over $2,000 bucks.

That's twice this week! Those jerks!

Thanks for the warning, I'll be sure to stay clear!

Mr. Mega:

Thanks for the post. You were right on time. Glad to know that your contribution this is legal is because you got paid. If I were to post all the times people said they got paid, and then the scam folded, Paul would have to get two more servers to hold them all.

Glad to see that is your due diligence. Wonder what you will do if the authorities shut this down, and come to you to pay back "your got paid amounts?" Better hope they just run, and not get shut down. It could be expensive for you.

There's no winning with you people, is there?

If it doesn't pay, you say scam.
If it does pay, you say scam.
If I state a fact, I am a "shill".

What? Don't confuse you with facts, your mind clearly is made up?

The only investment you like are nice safe ones, like SEC registered, publicly traded, billion dollar companies.

> Like Enron…. oops!

> You meant, big Banks, like Bear Stearns…. oops!

> Wait, wait, wait, you meant big government backed institutions, like Fannie and Freddie… oops!

(For those less enlightened readers, all of these big institutions went under)

The fact is, *ANYTHING* can go down in flames, not just the Bernies of the world, so you might as well make BIG money while taking the SAME risk.

Period.

MrMegaWealth:

It is stealing no matter who does it, so according to you, you don't mind stealing other people's money as long as you get yours. Hmm, sounds like the people in the companies you cited in your hit piece. The typical my scam is OK, so concentrate on all the other scams, so leave my scam alone.

Just pray they do run and don't get shut down, because then you are going to find out it really was stealing. That also makes you an accessory. But thanks for bragging about how much you stole. I am sure the feds are most grateful for your honesty.

No-one "Makes" any money, they do "Steal" money disguised as "Making'" money. So tell me again how "Proud" you are that you are robbing people using your keboard instead of a gun.

You have yet to state one fact, but please do so. What you call a fact, "I got paid," is not a fact unless you provide proof. Nor does it make PTVPartner not a scam. It is only a fact that you said you got paid. You didn't even provide any proof that you did get paid. But we are just to take your word for it? So please bring your "facts" and let's disucss them.

As for you being a shill, yes you are. You are making claims that are not based on any facts, which in turn makes people believe PTVPartner is real. I guess they must be running dry of signing up new members, because of late all the shills have been out in force trying to lure others into believing they are going to make untold riches for doing nothing. You can't even prove PTVParnter is doing any kind of trading or investing. So let me ask this question: How many quarterly statements have you received from PTVPartner showing where and how your money was invested? Wait, you mean you can't?

I love it when Enron has to be trotted out to somehow prove that even if PTVPartner is a scam, it is no different than Enron. Enron was a legal company, with a real product, and was making real money. It was a couple of the players in Enron that decided to "steal" from the company and their shareholders with their bogus accounting procedures. Had this not happened, Enron would not have folded. For that matter, take any regulated company, bank, you name it, and take away a few people who "ginned the system," and none of them would have collapsed. It wasn't the company that did anything wrong, it was a few select people that caused their demise by stealing. I am just surprised you did not mention WorldCom. What are we up to now, #24 in the scammers handbook?

The difference with PTVPartner is it has been a scam from day one. There is nothing legal about it. They set out to deceive you, and steal your money. And they are succeeding big-time.

Love the apples to oranges comparison, but we're talking lemons here.

Well now, quite the little clique aren't we. All this supporting and back-slapping, I'm filling up here. But I'm bang on target as you are all responding pretty much as intended, but not expected – I didn't appreciate just how one dimensional the thinking.

Lynn, you are doing the assuming thing again. You're wrong, I didn't forget as I actually agree with you. In my previous post to you I actually deleted the following response as a pre-empt to help you focus on the specific point I made because I felt you might do the "PTV has a repsonsibility" routine and avoid the point. Then I realised I wasn't being fair on you – you would have the awareness, recognise the point, and address it. But no, you just completely avoided it and went straight to routine. Sigh.

Ok, here you are. All those shouting from the rooftops, scam or not, have the responsibilty. PTV currently won't provide enough so yes potentially scam. Now, how about you? Remember, it has to be facts and proof, none of this observation, interpretation, and probability stuff. If you can't, and so far you haven't, then we have to put the same question mark over you too.

So stop misleading people with statements you cannot verify.

"So for the US to be able to "Extradite" anyone from a foreign country, they must show the foreign country they have "JURISDICTION" over the person."

Lynn, what happens when the country does not agree that jurisdiction has been shown? How subject are they then? Are they not subject only if and when the requested country agrees? That's not really being subject at all, is it? Not so much subject to the will of the US authorities as subject to a request from the US authorities. Something quite different, no? Still as simple is it Lynn? So, wrong again, my comments were accurate. Instead of the "world according to Google" why not try the "world outside the US".

"As for you being a shill, yes you are. You are making *claims* that are not based on any facts, which in turn makes people believe PTVPartner is real."

So that's what a shill is. Shame on Michael for not telling and me having to go through a fellow contributor's post to find out. Wonder if he has something to hide.

Right then Michael. "Claims". What claims? Feel free to quote me. You want to call people names, let's see what you got.

Jack & MrMegaWealth:

Rather than having to repeat myself on some points, I am going to address the two of you for ease of responding.

What you both keep missing is I don't have to prove a thing. PTVPartner is the one who has the burden of proof of showing they are legitimate. I have pointed out that if they are selling their investments to just one US citizen, they must be registered with the SEC, which they are not. Heck, they are not even registered in Belize of anywhere else for that matter. They claim because they are offshore they don't have to. I have shown they do.

You both keep acting like I am the one who is taking your money, and therefore, I must prove what I am doing with it. Instead of arguing with me, you should be demanding from PTVPartner what you seem to be demanding me to do. But so far all you both have done is follow the promoter's handbook almost to the letter.

One of the favorite tactics of a promoter/shill, is to attack the person's credibility who is challenging a scam. After all it is just "their' word, so why should we pay attnetion to it logic. I have actually shown inconsistencies in what PTVPartner has said versus what they have done. I have shown that Garrett was full of it when he claimed he spent two years researching before he came up with PTVPartner. So if he lied about this, what else is he lying about? Neither of you has even presented any information to dispute the issues I have raised. Try answering them proving me wrong instead of this psycho-babble the two of you are using. Then we had the bob and weave strategy, which is just deflecting any comments to another topic that appears to be relevant, but isn't. And of course the apples to oranges comparison

Jack, I am not going to parse every comment you make, nor attempt to make. You give yourself way too much credit for out-thinking anyone. I have given you plenty of opportunity, just as you claim you have given me, and you failed miserably; so call us even.

It still does not change the fact that PTVPartner is a scam. So defend away, deflect away, divert away, deny away, but it is still a scam. You can't prove it isn't. You can't prove they are even investing. You can't even prove that Garrett is Garrett. In fact you can't prove PTVPartner will last more than another month before running.

You have no financial statements, you have no quarterly report statements showing investments, returns and your account balance. All you have is Garrett saying they are trading, investing, and it has been proven he is a liar.

Now to the issue of what happens when the foreign country does not believe the US authorities have jurisdiction? They deny extradition. Only one problem with your question. The US only goes after people who they can prove they have jurisdiction over. So the illustration you are using is null and void as it doesn't exist.

But feel free to post all the "facts" that PTVPartner is real and legitimate. It is PTVPartner who has to "PROVE" they are real. They are the ones who are taking your money and claiming they are investing it for you; not me. I know you just hate it that this is the case, but "REAL" companies have no problem in doing so.

I have given plenty of information to discredit PTVPartner as being legitimate. The two of you in all of your posts combined have given no information to prove they are legitimate. Saying, "I got paid" is not proof.

So disprove all my comments. After all this should be a slam dunk since Garrett has all this information for you to use against me that will prove I am wrong and PTVPartner is real. So where is it, but more importantly why haven't you posted it before now?

Jack writes: "But I'm bang on target as you are all responding pretty much as intended, but not expected – I didn't appreciate just how one dimensional the thinking."

We are responding as intended? My how clever you make yourself seem!

Jack also writes: "You [Michael] are making *claims* that are not based on any facts, which in turn makes people believe PTVPartner is real."

Pretty sure that I outlined the basics of Charles Ponzi's psychology for the group to read. You could look it up.

Lynndel is correct about the requirement to register, but registering is necessary but not sufficient condition.

You also have to have a sound economic proposition: PTVPartner's proposition is the magic box – put money here and PTV will make it magically grow. Just don't ask any questions. Or Jack will dazzle you with his odd English.

It is quite clear that you are shilling for this silly idea, Jack. You haven't taken even a modicum of effort to respond to Lynndel's observations about the SEC – because you know he is right.

Why you are shilling is not clear. You are either just dead stupid, or you have no clue about what you are talking about, or you are a paid shill. I vote for the latter, partly because nobody could talk such nonsense without having an alternative agenda.

Paul:

This is a precursor to them folding. Almost every scam starts having server issues just prior to their folding. Of course the story line will be one of these excuses: 1. They were hacked; 2. They were down for maintenance; 3. They were updating the website and someone forgot to turn the switch back on; or 4. They were switching servers. That is provided they haven't run. Of course none of these excuses match the error thrown by not being able to access the website, but who cares as long as they come back up.

Of course if they use the hacker excuse, that flies in face of Garrett's claims their website is secure from hackers. But then the excuse will be that all websites, no matter how secure, are subject to being hacked. Another deflection technique.

As I said earlier, they will be lucky if they make it to the end of this month before they run. It won't be long now until we know for sure. Stay tuned, because this is just starting to get interesting. Funny, but another coincidence to FLO, as the time line is just about the same as when FLO ran with all the money. Hmmm, wonder if Garrett was really the admin of FLO after all?

Lynnn, are you actually reading my posts? You wrote:

"What you both keep missing is I don't have to prove a thing. PTVPartner is the one who has the burden of proof of showing they are legitimate."

I wrote:
"All those shouting from the rooftops, scam or not, have the responsibilty. PTV currently won't provide enough so yes potentially scam. Now, how about you?"

So, what did I miss Lynn? You're post was full of this type of inconsistency and error. I don't have time to go through you're whole diatribe but here's another one the dart landed on:

You wrote:
"In fact you can't prove PTVPartner will last more than another month before running."

Lynn, I never said I could. Feel free to quote me.

Errors, inconsistencies, and just plain making things up throughout that whole post of yours. Highly questionable if not suspicious. Where else are you continuing this theme Lynn? Lazy, or hidden agenda.

You are so vociferous that I would suggest you do have burden. But even if you don't, I merely ask for you to show proof. You haven't. Same as PTV. Same doubt, same question mark. You don't know PTV is a scam. You think it probably is though, and you could well be correct. But you don't know.

So stop misleading people that you do know.

You wrote:
"Only one problem with your question. The US only goes after people who they can prove they have jurisdiction over."

And what happens if the country disagrees that it is proof that is being shown? Easily done, after all you probably think you have shown proof that PTV is a scam when many would disagree. Still as simple Lynn?

Michael wrote:
Jack also writes: "You [Michael] are making *claims* that are not based on any facts, which in turn makes people believe PTVPartner is real."

What, no quote Michael? Where is this great claim I'm making that puts me in shill territory? Come now, if you're position is so black and white, if you are going to name call, why the drawn out post that doesn't answer a simple question?

Paul wrote:
What's going on with the server over at PTVPartner?

Lynn replied:
Paul: This is a precursor to them folding. Almost every scam starts having server issues just prior to their folding.

An argument for strict privacy involves the nickel and dime brigade panic, nose bleeds at the first hint of a hair out of place. The two comments above might suggest that the full disclosure so many (no names mentioned) insist upon would be tantamount to business suicide.

However, it could mean the beginning of the end too as scammers supposedly do what Lynn states.

But why push one side and not the other? Very interesting Lynn.

The server appears to be working just fine. Would anyone like a Tulip?

Lynndel, the purpose of Jack's remarks are not to engage in debate but to plant the seed of possibility – necessary for Pascal's wager to take hold.

"Gee, this scheme might, could, sort of, oughta work. Yes, a small chance but great returns."

Jack's insistence on for a) shifting onus, b) a standard of proof unknown at law are all designed to allow doubt back into the picture. Again, all part of the compliance techniques required to make this attractive as a gamble wrapped in the clothes of an investment.

I particularly like the claim that absolute secrecy is needed to prevent the dreaded bank run! But why ruin it with a reference to the Tulip mania? Jeez, when the shills cannot even keep a straight face, you know that the ship has already hit bottom

Jack:

Thanks for proving you are a shill. Still waiting for you to answer all the points I have made against PTVPartner. This should be a slam dunk for you, or for MrMegaWealth to do. So what's stopping you both?

No room for doubt then Michael? Interesting.

Is there not responsibilty on both sides? Not so much shifting as balancing. That standard of proof was taken from Lynn's demands on PTV so I'm not sure where that leaves you.

Absolute secrecy won't prevent a run, but the absence of it could certainly assist. Nice twist on my words though.
Got my quote yet? The longer you leave it the more it reflects on you. Or you could simply say that you got it wrong and apologize.

Roll them out, Lynn. I'm here. All I have from you so far is error, inconsistency, and very little in the way of facts (as I've already mentioned and which you should know if you'd care to concentrate on my previous response to you!). Not much to work with there. If the points are contained within said diatribe please filter them out, thanks.

And how did I prove I was a shill? I thought I had to make a claim somewhere?

Lynn wrote in labelling Mega a shill:
"You are making claims that are not based on any facts, which in turn makes people believe PTVPartner is real."

Please, would either you or Michael quote me my claim. I'm happy to admit I'm a shill if the description fits but you're going to have to provide that claim I've made. And you're not allowed to make anything up, I'll spot it.

Hold on a moment, you haven't changed the definition to suit your own end here have you? You guys.

Anyway, let us begin, Point One…

Jack, you are a shill precisely because you a) don't make claims that could be refuted, and b) engage in pointless speculation about phantom dreams.
You just aren't a very good shill, especially since you just gave the game away.

So how is your Tulip auction going? Any bidders, yet?

Woah there Michael, is this "choose your definition of shill" day? Lynn says it's about making claims and after searching and asking you both for that claim you turn things on their head and say it's about NOT making claims! Oh great. As the Irish would say you two are taking the Michael, Michael. You need a ladder for that hole?

So, now it's because I don't make claims that can be refuted. Is that not a good thing? Need something to shoot at?

In keeping with the theme of "bring your own" I have a defintion for you. A shill is someone who disagrees with you. That's it. As punishment they get to be ridiculed and labelled and called names. Cause they deserve it, right? I got a name for that.

What game? You're possibly over-analysing my tulip. It was merely a nod to the madness of crowds (and yes, just in case you feel the need to mention it, the delusion does work both ways).

Well, I never did get my quote, did I? You conveniently tuned out and into something totally different and started over. What else could you do? After all, apologies are not easy.

@Paul;

Jack's sole goal is to create the possibility of an illusion – which accounts for the odd language. In order for Pascal's wager to take hold, Jack has to pound the silly idea that there is a small chance for a large return. The analytical answer is that the chance is so small that no bank is large enough to contain the return needed for there to be a positive expected value.

@Jack;

Give it up, buddy. You have blown yourself up by acknowledging the madness of the crowd and trying to play to it. You cannot mock a mark to his face.

Yes, earning profit is **THE MOST Important** aspect of any investment.

Would you rather have a completely transparent opportunity that never makes you a profit (been there, done that).

Or, rather something that is less transparent and pays a truckload?

Truckload, please!

What I want to explain about what is going on with Jack’s posts is this. Whenever someone dares challenge a program, there are those whom we call shills who have to come to the defense of the scam. Now they do this in different stages, and sometimes they overlap the stages in one post. So you have to know how the game is played so you can understand what is happening.

Here’s how the game works.

Usually the shill will start out asking innocent questions, and appear to be really wanting information. Then they will move to the clarification stage. At both these stages, they are respectful, courteous, and seem sincere in their requests. That is just for show.

Of course in most programs the admin is held out to be the most honest admin that has ever run a program. They build him up and put him on a pedestal, and to criticize or challenge the admin’s statements is a big no-no. They cannot have anyone casting desparaging remarks about the admin, because it might reveal the program is a scam. Of course they immediately demand “Proof” of your remarks. Of course they offer none of their own in defense, but use deflection in an attempt to avoid having to actually answer any hard questions.

Then we come to the word games, or parsing of words that really have no meaning, but this is the power of diversion. By making something that has no bearing on the subject at hand seem important, they hope to keep the person challenging the program off target, and basically chasing shadows. It also keeps you from following the real issues, and being hung up on trivial issues that have no bearing on the program and its legitimacy.

Then we have the claim you have not provided any real facts to support your position posts. Here they try to put the focus on the challenger by claiming they don’t have to prove anything, but the challenger has to prove everything they say against the program. This is another deflective tactic and nothing more than a diversion from the real facts. The real facts is the requirement is on the program to prove it is legal, not the other way around. Of course they claim this is not true, but then they have no facts to dispute the challenges being made. If they had, they would have already addressed each issue completely.

Another tactic is when they seek to dismiss the challenger while ignoring their arguments. They try to claim the person’s arguments are not relevant to the program. They will usually throw in the challenger is just rehashing the same old tired arguments, and they don’t deserve a reply.

When all of that doesn’t work, then they try to demonize the challenger. This is when the motives of the challenger is questioned, thus hoping they can raise doubt about the challenger, thus making their points invalid. This is when we begin to hear the challenger must have a hidden agenda or ulterior motive. This is usually when the challenger is derided as being a do-gooder or a crusader. Now what is truly ironic in these statements is this….so what if they are? It still doesn’t make the program legal. But they hope you won’t realize that, and fall for their discrediting the challenger.

Of course we must always have the “I’ve got Paid” post. The illusion here is if it is paying, then it must be legal. What they don’t tell you is that almost all get paid in the very beginning of every Ponzi or Pyramid scam. It means absolutely nothing. What they also don’t tell you is they have already gotten out of the program, and most are just receiving referral bonuses. They have zero of their own money at risk because they all know it won’t be long until the program goes poof.

One of my favorites though is when they always bring up another Ponzi that has nothing to do with their program. I guess they think this means because another program was a Ponzi means it is somehow magically OK their program is a Ponzi/scam. Of course they usually throw in it is the “evil” government that is shutting down legitimate companies just for the fun of it. The government does not want to see the little guy get ahead, so they go after any program that will make the little guy no longer poor and they can’t have that.

Now that you understand how the game is played, you can read Jack’s posts and understand them. Just realize that I have made statements that I have provided detailed information for all of you to consider. Now Jack wants me to provide further proof my statements are valid, or I cannot be believed. Interesting isn’t it that he has not once answered any of my statements with any counter statement proving I am wrong. All he says is he doesn’t have to prove anything, and all the burden of proof is on me. That is what I mean by deflection and mis-direction.

Jack also wants you to forget that I am not the one who has taken your money, nor promising you returns that are not real. He can’t have you focusing on these issues, because he can’t answer them. If he could, he would have long before now. In fact he is still playing the word games and parsing words aspect, thrown in with trying to discredit me.

These same tactics were used by the shills in PIPS, FLO, Wealth Pools International, Megalido, ASD, Noobing, iNetGlobal, AVGA, BAS, AGW, PhoenixSurf, CEP, 12DP, SharedProfit/Mpact, and all the other programs that were scams. If you want the truth, 99.9% of all HYIP’s are scams. Whether it is PTVPartner, Genius Funds, GNI, or any other program, they are all scams.

Now I am sure that Jack will have to take issue with my last statements. After all, according to him, it is not all black and white, there is a lot of gray. Well, not true in the HYIP world. It is black and white. He just wishes it was gray. Makes it easier for him to shill the programs.

So check out how many of these tactics Jack has used so far, and I know more are coming. I have just held back to let him prove my point before exposing the other games the shills like to play.

@Mr Mega Wealth:

Spoken like a true shill. Only problem is there are "NO PROFITS." You are STEALING other people's money. Thanks for confirming you are a thief too.

Lynndel 'Lynn' Edgington,

So if you lose money in the stock market and another gain money in the stock market the person that gains is stealing. (lol) In investing you have winners and losers.

Another view: Comparing apples to oranges again. Favorite shill game. There is a difference. In the stock market you always have two opposing sides. One believes the price will go up, and the other believes the price will go down. In a scam, the only winners are the perps behind it and their shills/Promoter's. Of course you know all of this, but are just trying to confuse the issue. But glad to see you know how to follow the scammers playbook.

For those of you who are following all of this, here's another insider tip. The admin of these scams can never tell you in specific detail what kind of investments they are supposedly doing on your behalf. They always talk in big picture lingo. The reason being is the moment they state what kind of specific investments they are doing, those in the investment world know if it can be done or not, can monitor the type of trades they are doing, and match that up against what they claim they made on the investment. It keeps the "magic" all of this is real, when it is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. And of course as we have seen by Another View the lame attempt to try and say their scam is no different than buying and selling stocks. The apples to oranges comparison. What I truly find interesting is their need to shill here, rather than on the other public forums. Guess they think they have an audience they can dupe into joining this scam.

They misjudged this audience. You are far smarter than them, and won't be fooled. But shhhhhhhh don't tell them. They are fun to play with, well at least for a little while longer.

Lynndel,

In answer to this part," quote,..For those of you who are following all of this, here's another insider tip. The admin of these scams can never tell you in specific detail what kind of investments they are supposedly doing on your behalf. They always talk in big picture lingo." unquote.

Actually Garrett admin has said on several occasion where the money is been invested, and where the profits are coming from for payouts,…it is from the production of the Sillica mine,.. actually he goes into great details to explain what all the details of the mine and what they plan to do there,.. and says funds for payouts are coming 100% from the production of Sillica from the mine.

Now i am not saying whether i believe him or not about the mine or even if one exists,..who knows,.. but he does give lots of details about that area and says that is where all members invested funds are going and been paid from,..so saying scam admins gives no details on what investments they are into is not true in this admins case,.. as he goes into some great details about that,.. but again, i am not saying i believe it all, but it is creative thinking anyway.

Bill:

Thanks for that information, but let me ask you these questions:
Since Garrett is so forthcoming with all these details, then where is the mine located? Who owns the mine? What is the tonage they are extracting on a daily basis? Are they selling this silica on the spot market or from contract customers? Is the sales generated on a 30, 60 or 90 market? Is payment being made from gross revenue or from net profit? How do you know if the mine really is making money as claimed? What percentage of ownership does PTVPartner have with this mine? What percentage of the revenue goes to the company and what percentage goes to PTVPartner for the return on their investment? Have you seen a prospectus detailing all of this information, or is it just solely on Garrett's word? This is what I mean by the details.

I can say that I am trading in FOREX, but that means nothing unless you know what type of FOREX trading I am doing. I can say I am trading in currencies, but what currencies? I can be trading in sugar, but is it raw or refined sugar? I can say I am trading in Coffee, but is it in coffee beans, the futures market on coffee beans, or spot market? The same thing holds true for oil, gold, silver, platinum, aluminum, or any commodity that comprises the FOREX markets. It also means nothing if I am not licensed to trade in FOREX. This is what I mean by the details.

So far I have not seen Garrett provide one piece of evidence this mine even exists except his "trust me" statements. So, if he lied about his spending two years developing this program, when it is a copy-cat of another program or two, so what makes his statements about the silica mine true? But I am sure that Jack, Another View, or MrMegaWealth can clear all of this up for us.

I'm waiting for the post that says that Social Security is a Ponzi, which I am sure is about to happen. Maybe not since I brought it up first. LOL!

Thanks Paul for reminding me. I had totally forgotten it as it is one of my all-time favorites when it comes to comparing apples to oranges. I do remember it know that you mentioned it. Too many long days and short nights. LOL!

Of course the irony with Social Security is that is supposed to be an intergenerational transfer of funds, from the young and working to the old and not working. There is no suggestion that scheme works by confusing the return of capital with a return on capital.

Stealing? I love being called names without basis. What's next. Communist? Witch? Planning to burn me at the stake on more unproven hunches? Break out the pitch forks and torches, I feel an angry mob growing against the ones who speak out and dare to be different.

Stealing? Hardly. What am I doing, breaking into people's houses and forcing them to deposit into Liberty Reserve against their will? They take the same risk that I do, and get paid the same as I do. The only theif here is you, as you are trying to steal people's opportunity to profit before they even have a chance to participate, if they so desire.

The only problem with your argument is that more return on capital has been paid out that capital that has been put in. As mentioned previously, the growth of new members could not have sustained the payouts to date.

MrMegaWealth: How do you know that more has been paid out than capital put in? Are you one of the insiders, or just a mere member? The only way you could possible know absolutely is to be one of the insiders. Otherwise you only "think" you know. Talk about not providing facts.

So since you "know" all this for a "fact," please do tell us where the mine is located, who owns it, what percentage of ownership does PTV have in the mine, what is the gross profits on the mine, what is the net profit on the mine, what percentage of profit does PTV receive for their investment, you know all the "real' things that a "legitimate" company would provide to their investors.

By the way how much did it cost you to rent the Lambo for your video? Here's a suggestion for your next Lambo video: It is more impressive when it is done in the showroom with the dealer handing you the keys to the car, instead of it being hauled to the middle of nowhere in a traier attached to a pickup truck and claiming you bought it. Also, the FTC will be interested to know that you could purchase a Lambo after just 90 days return on your investment just by joining PTV. Too funny.

So do tell all the details of your inside information and where all this magical income comes from. I'm sure it was just an oversight you did not include it in your previous post.

Paul, It looks like 2 diff. cars- same color tho. I think it's a scam of course.Why would anyone just want to unload a car in the road like that anyway? He could be one of the transporters just showing off.

Paul:

I am shocked, I say, shocked that MrMegaWealth would lie about this. I mean here he is on video tellling the world how he bought this Lambo with his return off his investment in PTVPartner. I mean, who wouldn't believe that only after 6 months a $5,000 investment in PTVPartner would be able to return enough interest to purchase a $250,000 Lambo?

Makes me wonder what program the person was in for the other video last March since there was no voice-over to tell us? But I am sure someone did a voice over just like MrMegaWealth to pimp their scam de jour.

Shame on you Paul. You weren't supposed to check this out to see if it was real or not. Scammers playbook says the newbies won't check out any story as long as it sounds impressive. They will just buy the hype, so lie big. The bigger the lie, the easier people will fall for it. If he had been smart, he would have waited until this March 15 to post this. Then he could claim they got the date wrong as it was a typo. Guess he isn't too comfortable this will last until this 15th. When this happens, you can bet they are about finished, and recruiting has slowed down way too much.

But I am sure this is just some big mistake and MrMegaWealth will be able to clear all of this up for us. That is if he will show his face here again now that he has been outed.

All I can say is… why is everyone so obsessed about whether PTV is a scam or not? If you don't like it then don't invest any money in it….very simple really. There are those who would love to see this program fail and of course plenty of people that are hoping it can continue to payout these generous returns for the long haul. How long PTV will last is anybody's guess, but the same goes for all kinds of business ventures in the world today.

I personally have invested in options, stocks, forex, and various hyip's. I treat everyone of my investments with the same mentallity. I invest knowing that there is a chance that I could net a zero return. Of course that is not what I expect to happen, but I know that there is that chance.

My advice to anyone considering investing in PTV is to do your own investigating using various sources. Don't form your opinion just from reading what is said on this website, or from any other one source for that matter. Try to find the negative and the positive. When all is said and done and you think you would like to invest with them, then only spend a small amount (according to your income). Some will say to get that amount back asap, or you can roll it over for a while until you have reached a comfortable level. Bottom line is that you haven't invested any amount that would create hardships for you if you didn't get it back.

The only purpose is to keep people from investing at this late stage of the HYIP game so they definitely won't lose their money. There are those who are doing their best to say this program is legitimate, when it has never been legitimate. There is a big difference from investing in real investments than investing in a scam. The only true winners in a scam are the perps behind it, and those major players that they bring in early that get all the major money, while the sheep are the ones who get fleeced thinking it is real, and they too will win big.

In short, it is stelaing, but according to many as long as it is done with a keyboard it is OK to steal. It is only bad when you use a gun or a knife to steal.

All trading is a risk. Those who condemn PTV should also condemn WallStreet.

There are many ways of winning and many ways of losing.

When anyone makes an investment, first consider all the angles.

Then decide how you would feel if you were to lose.

Then make your choice based on how you would react to every possible situation.

Once the choice is made, it is your choice alone. No one made you do it.

I made my choice just as I have made it many times before.

I know all the ways I can win, and all the ways I can lose.

I can't blame anyone because I alone made the choice.

As soon as possible I'm taking my seed money out, after which, I can't lose anyway.

I trust that Garrett is telling the truth, but if he isn't, I knew that before making my choice.

So those who don't like it, please turn your back and walk a way.

What others say and do is none of my business,

But what I say and do is of the utmost importance, "To me".

Hmm, the PTVPartner blog is gone, MrMegaWealth is gone, and Jack is gone. Rather odd they all disappeared at about the same time, isn't it?

The blog is back. Lynndel sounds a little disappointed that he didn't invest 6 months ago.

Moe:

Thanks for the laugh. After the day I had, it was good to laugh. Much appreciated. Now that we have had Jack and Moe post, wonder when Manny will show up? In case anyone doesn't get what I meant, think Pep Boys.

Now that GNI has tossed in the towel, Genius Funds is on the ropes and will soon depart, it will be intersting to see how much longer this turkey will be able to escape the axe. It is not a question of 'If' but "When."

I had a chance to listen to Garrett's big spiel. He deserved an academy award for the best fiction writing category. I kept waiting for him to announce they also found diamonds and oil at the mine. They have found just about everything else there.

By the way, found it interesting that they really don't need any of the members, but out of the goodness of their hearts they are willing to pay up to !90% return to you just because they are good guys. Yeah right. Too funny.

So Jack, or anyone else for that matter, come on back and let's discuss Garrett's magical carpet ride about the mine and all the lies he told.

Lynn wrote:
"Hmm, the PTVPartner blog is gone, MrMegaWealth is gone, and Jack is gone. Rather odd they all disappeared at about the same time, isn't it?"

Jack's back! Mega's probably spending his money. Blog is upgraded and doing fine as far as I can tell. PTV is paying as required as far as I know.

Yes, all rather odd indeed.

I haven't been posting because there's nothing to respond to. The theories keep adjusting to accommodate the previous inaccuracies, the countdown clocks to PTV collapse keep resetting, and we have comments like Lynn's above dismantled without so much as a second glance.

I'm all up for debate but I don't have time for the fish in a barrel stuff.

You have yet to prove your claims, and yes so have PTV. Whether money's involved or not, a claim's a claim. Prove it.

If you can't then you don't know PTV is a scam and therefore you shouldn't be claiming you do know. That is misleading people.

So, as you were people, make up your own minds. Lynn and co do not know if what they claim is indeed the case.

Do not be misled. Make up your own mind.

(I didn't read any further back than Lynn's above quote. If that's where things have evolved to then that's enough for me).

PTV has been hacked! Website is gone! Panic!

Just kidding…. they paid me again.

(How horrible!)

Paul:

You have to understand how the game is played. When a shill gets caught lying like MrMegaWealth, they never address their lie. Instead they change the subject and pretend it never happened. Besides what’s a little lie about buying a Lambo with money earned from PTVPartner? It’s not like it was a $250,000 car .

As for the blog site being down, they both know it, they are just trying to deflect attention from the fact the blog is down. It is the typical shill game to try and make us look like the liars instead of them. We are back to the parsing of words again part of the shill game.

What happened to Manny? I thought by now he surely would have posted something.

Jack, Jack, Jack: Please feel free at any time to post your comments about everything I have posted about PTVPartner that you consider to be a lie. You have yet to discredit or dispute one thing I have said, except for your game of innuendo. So bring it on.

As for my not having anything to support my statements that PTVPartner is a scam, too funny.

I said Genius Funds was a scam, and all the shills said I had no proof. Genius Funds has stopped paying and soon it will be known the admin ran with the money.

I said GNI was a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. GNI has bought the farm and shut down and the admin will run with the money.

I said that ASD Cash Generator was a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. ASD Cash Generator was raided by the Secret Service and shut down as an Illegal Ponzi. Ponzi equals scam.

I said that Regenesis2×2 was a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. The Secret Service raided Regenesis2×2 and shut it down saying it was a classic Ponzi. Ponzi equals scam.

I said that Megalido was a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. Megalido folded and the admin ran with the funds. It was a scam.

I said that CEP was a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. CEP was shut down by the SEC for running an illegal Ponzi. Ponzi equals scam.

I said that CashTanker was a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. CashTanker tanked, and the admin ran with the money.

I said that iNetGlobal/AdPacs was a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. The Secret Service raided the offices and said it was a classic Ponzi. Ponzie equals scam.

I have said that GPP is a scam, and the shills said I had no proof it was a scam. GPP has missed 7 deadlines and will soon disappear with the admin running with the money.

I have said that PTVPartner is a scam, and all you shills say I have no proof it is a scam. Want to bet that it won’t be long until PTVPartner runs with the money or is shut down as being an illegal Ponzi?

Now I could name a lot more if you would like for me to do so. Amazing isn’t it that all the shills said I had no proof all those programs were a scam, but everyone was a scam. By the way, just so you know. We helped take down many of the programs I referenced above. Seems law enforcement agreed with my saying they were a scam.

So feel free to provide all your information about everything I have said about PTVPartner and Garrett is a lie, and I have't proved anything about PTVPartner. Want to discuss Garrett’s piece of fiction called the conference call about the mine too?

The ball is in your court. While it would be nice for you to actually post something constructive proving what I have said is a lie, instead you will respond trying to say that I have proved nothing again, and again, and again just like you have in your past few posts; as did all the shills in every program I referenced.

I sure hope Manny posts soon, I don't want him missing all the fun.

Lynn wrote:
"As for the blog site being down, they both know it, they are just trying to deflect attention from the fact the blog is down. It is the typical shill game to try and make us look like the liars instead of them."

Oh dear. I'm tempted to say ignorance is bliss but I have too much respect for you. Are you being deliberately obtuse? I have the PTV Blog on another page, it's fine, been fine for days. Assuming you're comment is honest, I can see exactly where you are going wrong so let's see if you can work this one out. We're sort of back at the Bill and Warren thing now. Go on Lynn you can do it, I know you can, make me proud.

What we have above is the perfect example of what I've been commenting on: You don't know it all. You think you have all the info and from that flawed premise it's welcome to planet Lynn.

Lynn wrote:
"Jack, Jack, Jack: Please feel free at any time to post your comments about everything I have posted about PTVPartner that you consider to be a lie."

Just that you say PTV is a scam when you clearly don't know if it is or isn't otherwise you would have proved it by now. This is the premise you work from and from there everything follows, open season on PTV from that one seriously flawed premise. I'm not sure "lies" is the correct word bcause I believe you believe, to the point of fanaticism, or maybe paid agenda which in that case it would be lies, but everything that follows from one flawed premise is…well…you get the idea.

PTV may well turn out to be a scam and I seek the same proof of claim from PTV that it isn't a scam as I do from you that it is a scam. I have diligence that gives credence to PTV and I have gaps that make it look suspect.

Same rules for both Lynn, there's nothing special about your claim. You just need to prove it and so far, just like PTV, you haven't.

Just say to people that you think it could be a scam and give your reasons. But to say to people that it is a scam and that you know it is a scam is to mislead those people if they take you at your word.

Quoting past performance is a consideration. However, you make it sound like a guarantee of future performance which of course it cannot be, particularly as you are not comparing like for like although I suspect you think you are. If your diligence is anything like that applied to the PTV Blog or the Warren and Bill argument then that does not surprise me.

You don't know if PTV is a scam. If you do then please prove it. Otherwise stop misleading people that you know when you clearly do not.

Lynn wrote:
"Seems law enforcement agreed with my saying they were a scam."

Well, if both of you were in agreement then I guess it must be true.

Jack:

Love the circle jerk logic. You are starting to sound like an investment prospectus, wait PTVPartner doesn't have an investment prospectus, with the "past performance is not an indicator of future performance." To bad for you but past peformance is a very good indicator of future performance, since this is what Eagle does. Really a weak and pathetic argument.

As I predicted, we are back to I have not provided any "Proof" that PTVPartner is a scam. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. What part of PTVPartner is not licensed or registered anywhere in the world to sell investments did you miss? What part of they are selling unregistered securities did you miss? What part of PTVPartner is required to provide a prospectus to their investors and haven't did you miss? Those were just the warm up acts of PTVPartner being a scam. But freel free to prove they are licensed and registered in every jurisdiction where they are selling their investments to their membership, their investments are registereed in every jurisdiction in which they operate, and please provide Proof of the prospectus, since past performance is not an indicator of future performance.

I am lmiiting my proof to just these 3 for now, because it seems you can't handle more than 3 at a time. So please prove I am wrong. There are only 3, or is this 2 too many? Once you can handle these 3, then we will move on to the next 3. That is provided you can actually handle 3 issues at once.

And yes, the PTVPartner blog is still down. Nice try at trying to make people think we were talking about the PTVPartner "private" blog. Too funny. Don't you just hate it when your deflect and re-direct posts fall flat and fail miserably?

Can't wait for MrMegaWealth to explain his Lambo really wasn't his Lambo video. That is if he has the guts to come back and explain it, which I doubt. Got caught in a whopper huh!

Where's Manny? I know he is out there, and I know he is dying to get into this discussion; so come on Manny, come join the party. Jack and MrMegaWealth need your help desperately.

Lynn wrote:
"…past peformance is a very good indicator of future performance…"

It's a consideration, a potential indicator. Nothing more. We'll agree to disagree.

Lynn wrote:
"As I predicted, we are back to I have not provided any "Proof" that PTVPartner is a scam."

Yep, well done. Tough prediction to make, especially as it's key and you can't provide on it.

Regarding your rhetorical questions, please provide proof of what you are essentially saying. It will not be lost on many the significance of attempting to proof by asking questions. Asking questions of others is not providing proof. So please try again.

The so-called proofs: I can't provide the proof of what you request, I have never said I could. However, it doesn't mean they don't exist. There is also a question mark over how applicable some of the requirements are.

Besides, you are meant to be supplying the proof, not me, I'm not the one with the claims. Cleverly put and nice try Lynn but your proof is NOT what I cannot prove. YOU need to supply proof of why PTV is a scam. If you are saying the non-existence of something is a proof then prove that it really doesn't exist. Personally I think that's almost impossible, a very difficult thing to achieve, so it is rather telling why you have chosen that route.

If PTV is in your mind so obviously a scam why not choose an easier option and show us all the existence of something that demonstrates scam rather than trying to demonstrate the possibilty of non-existence of something? If it's that obvious you must have something of substance?

You need to provide proof that PTV is a scam if you are claiming that it is indeed that. As things stand you do not know if it is a scam yet you still claim it is. Even though it may turn out that way you should not be misleading people to think that you know what you claim because at the moment you don't know. If you do please provide proof (and not the excuses for proof from your last post, we all know these are not proofs).

The Blog: Tell me you're periodically checking to see if it comes back. Don't take your eyes off it now, it'll be back shortly, very shortly, any moment now, yes it's down at the moment, keep watching now, let us all know when you see it again.

Jack:

I am really disappointed in you, but then since you are a shill for this scam program, I am not surprised by your continued refusal to even address the basic issues of PTVPartner being legal. You can't have a discussion when you refuse to be intellectually honest.

You see, shills never accept anything as "proof" their program is a scam. I am giving you the legalities that is required of every investment program that is required for them to sell their investments to US citizens, and you want to claim it is not important and doesn't apply. I guess 3 regs were 2 to many for you to handle in one post.

If the government agencies would raid and shut this down, the next mantra will be the evil government is at fault, and doesn't want the little guy to get ahead. instead they want to keep him in poverty. Now there are at least 5 other variations on this theme of the evil government, but not going to waste time here listing them all.

Since you have no intention of having an honest discussion, I have more important things to do than play your silly word games. My only reason for doing so up until now has been to educate others how this game is played, show why they should avoid investing in this scam, and then it is up to them to decide if they do or not. At least they have been warned, so when they do lose their money, and they will, they only have themselves to blame.

The sad part in all of this is you are no different than every other shill I have encountered and their arguments with one exception. At least they had some intellectual integrity and honesty that you are solely lacking.

Whether or not the Word Press Blog comes back or not really has no bearing on PTVPartner being legal. I just found it interesting that it disappeared without any warning, and so far has not been re-activated.

So when you want to discuss what the SEC reg's say, and how they apply to PTVPartner, let me know. Until then there is nothing more to discuss.

Still waiting on MrMegaWealth to explain how his Lambo isn't really his Lambo. So much for his big returns from PTVPartner providing him the money to buy a car that's not his.

Manny…..where are you when Jack needs you?

And there it is people. The last bastion of the defeated; ignore, distract, and ridicule. Textbook stuff that I could see coming before even my first post here.

Anything to avoid addressing the matter. At the simplest of questioning Lynn's whole argument crumbles, and the simpler the question the greater the attack.

If the claim is that obvious then the mere request of proof should not be too much to ask. Yet it is and you must ask yourself why. Lynn could easily give a warning that PTV may be a scam and present reasons. But no, what we get is as unconditional as it is fanatical, and not a shred of proof to support it. Why? Why indeed. Hidden agenda? A paid piper?

Beware those who announce they have your best interests at heart.

Shame on those who would destroy the chance to dream a different dream, a better dream.

Shame on you Lynn for misleading people into thinking you know what you claim when you clearly do not know.

Oh do tell about the Lambo being a hoax!!! How did you find out??

Paul wrote:
"Or would you attack the person who claims that your crystal ball is a scam and say, "You can't prove that he doesn't have a crystal ball that manifests money magically".

That's essentially what Jack's argument boils down to."

Terrible.

Ok, let's start gently. Paul, in your analogy what does the magic represent and what does the crystal ball represent?

Let's see just how suitable this analogy is.

As for the rest of your comments I think they are very fair. Parts of what is mentioned can be answered and cleared by due diligence but I accept that that is not an easy process. Other parts are not applicable, and still other parts remain open and unanswered, potentially suspect.

I also think Lynn's questions are fair. However, his claim is not because he is misleading people into thinking (should they heed his advice) that he knows that PTV is a scam when he clearly does not. If he did then he would have provided the simple proof that should exist, and he hasn't.

So, good advice by Paul. All that is needed now is to establish which parts of the advice you are not comfortable with, why you shouldn't be comfortable with them, and then simply (or not so simply) make up your own mind.

You have the auduacity to bag PTV.

What about all the investments made in legimate companies registered with the ASC in Australia who collapsed owing their investors hundreds of millions of dollars.

Just becaused they are registered with any securities commission in any country is no guarentee that your money will be safe.

I bet more money has been lost investing with these governmet registered companies that has ever been lost with any HYIP program.

Paul wrote:
"Jack. The "Magic" represents "There's a Mine and we can't tell you where it is."

So are you saying that mines are as likely as magic crystal balls? Mines exist. Magic crystal balls? Hey, I'll keep an open mind.

Careful now, remember we are discussing what my argument boils down to, not what you think about the idea of a PTV mine. There is a difference.

If you are saying my argument boils down to this particular mine being as likely as a magic crystal ball then you need to do a little more research, particulary if you want to run this website professionally.

I don't know if there is a mine for sure (if you know where to look and who to speak to there is some indication it exists) but I do know mines exist, more so than magic crystal balls.

So my argument does not boil down to your magic comparison. Please think before you represent another in writing.

@Blue Paradise:

You would lose the bet. Ponzi/Scams/Fraud in the HYIP field alone is over a $250 Billion Dollar crime wave worldwide. Toss in all the other scams, and it is a $500 Billion Dollar crime wave worldwide. The actual number is quite higher because not everyone reports their loss.

But here's the difference between registered companies stealing and unregistered companies stealing. With the registered companies, the law enforcement agencies know who the players are and all their business and personal contact information. In unregistered companies you have no clue who is behind the scam/Ponzi/fraud. it is why the registered crooks get caught, are tried and convicted so quickly. With HYIP law enforcement agencies have no clue who they are or where they are located for the most part. The good news is that is changing, and changing quickly.

But if you really want to discuss the difference, and why scams are more damaging to the masses, let me know.

PTVPartner:

Not one of you can tell me where PTVPartner is really located, what is their physical address, what is their telephone number, or the names and contact information of anyone behind PTVPartner. You can't even prove that Garrett Rainier is Garrett Rainier. But we have proved that Garrett is a liar. Don't you wonder or care what else he is lying about?

One thing is for certain. Anytime you "invest" in a HYIP you will have your shirt handed to you. The only true winners in a HYIP are the people behind it and their shills. Sure they pay out in the beginning, but is from new members joining to pay the older members their so-called 'returns" on their investment. No such thing exists because there are no investments. You can't even prove those who are claiming they got paid, really got paid. Yes they do pay, but only in the beginning to sucker the sheep into the scam.

Jack:

Now Jack is trying his darndest to make you believe that I have not provided any proof that PTVPartner is a scam. Yet when he says, and I quote: " The so-called proofs: I can't provide the proof of what you request, I have never said I could. However, it doesn't mean they don't exist. There is also a question mark over how applicable some of the requirements are." He does not provide any "proof" of this last sentence of his. The illusion is that there are exceptions to the SEC regulations, but he does not provide any information on what the "question mark over how applicable some of the requirements are." In essence, Jack is doing what he is accussing me of doing. So Jack, please explain just what these question marks and their application are. If the information does exist, Jack would also be able to provide it. If it existed it would have already been provided. So he refutes his own argument.

It always drives the shills nuts when I proclaim their program is a scam. Just like Jack, they always demand that I provide proof; and of course they are never required to provide any proof it is real. This is the game that is played. They know they can't provide proof, so they have to try to discredit the messenger; just like Jack has tried to do. Please notice that this is the only argument he has. Yet when I do, then he claims I have not done so, or there may be some fuzzy expception, but he can't say what that exception is. Notice that I am always being demanded to answer their questions, but they are never required to answer any of mine.

Why PTVPartner Is A SCAM:

Here's the bottom line: PTVPartner is the one who is offering an investment to U.S. citizens, and citizens of other countries. They are the ones who claim they are "investing." They are the ones who refuse to reveal anything about themselves. They are the ones who refuse to say where the mine is located. You know this magical mine they have discovered that has almost every mineral known to man, as well as geo-thermal and lumber galore. This is the purest silica anywhere in the world, and it is all a deep dark secret.

The US Laws stipulate that any organization that is offering an investment opportunity to citizens (it only takes one citizen) of the US, must be registered and licensed with the SEC. The people selling the investment(s) must be a licensed broker to do so. It makes no difference what Jack claims, what I say, or for that matter what anyone else says, until the laws are changed this is the law. PTVParrtner is not licensed in the US to offer investments, or anywhere else for that matter. For this reason alone it makes PTVPartner illegal and a scam.

Garrett, or anyone else for that matter, is not a licensed broker to sell securities in the US. Offering and selling securites without a license is illegal. Another reason why this is illegal and a scam.

And yet, according to Jack, I have not provided any proof that PTVPartner is a scam. I only wish people would be as diligent in checking out a program before they invest, as Jack is trying to give me an anal exam. For if you did so, you would not only save yourself a lot of money, but you also would not be part of a criminal enterprise.

This has been a very useful thread. Paul and Lynndel have gone great lengths to demonstrate in creative ways the falsity or emptiness of the PTV representations.

But what I have most enjoyed is reading Jack's tortured english, as he tries to raise the bare possibility that PTV might be legitimate:

"Parts of what is mentioned can be answered and cleared by due diligence but I accept that that is not an easy process. Other parts are not applicable, and still other parts remain open and unanswered, potentially suspect."

Uh, so it is too hard or impossible for PTV to show us the mine – why, is it right beside the Bre-X mine?

In calling for proof that PTV is a scam, Jack misses the basic tenet of rationality. We only need to judge which is more probable: PTV is a scam or PTV is the owner of a mine. We don't prove one proposition or the other, we judge which is more probable given the available evidence.

And in this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence – see:
http://www.bizop.ca/blog2/how-would-you-play-that/absence-of-evidence-is-evidenc.html

So from the rational judgment point of view, we need only decide which statement is more likely.

Go through Paul and Lynndel's points in favour of PTV being a scam, weigh them, and then go through the posters points in favour of PTV being a money machine. Compare what you think and then judge which is more reasonable.

@Jack, if you have some alternative theory of proof, I would be happy to hear it.

Lynn wrote:
"Not one of you can tell me where PTVPartner is really located, what is their physical address, what is their telephone number, or the names and contact information of anyone behind PTVPartner. You can't even prove that Garrett Rainier is Garrett Rainier."

Lynn, I can assure you that whilst you are on this crusade of making the claim that you make without providing any proof what I know about PTV and what I can prove about PTV is going nowhere near you.

Lynn wrote:
"Just like Jack, they always demand that I provide proof; and of course they are never required to provide any proof it is real."

ffs Lynn try and keep up. I never said PTV was real. Feel free to quote me.

Lynn wrote:
"Notice that I am always being demanded to answer their questions, but they are never required to answer any of mine."

Lynn, that's because you're the one making the claim. I make no claim but I do seek proof from those that do, both sides.

Lynn wrote:
"So Jack, please explain just what these question marks and their application are. If the information does exist, Jack would also be able to provide it."

Isn't it obvious or are you saying that all country-specific law is global in application, that cross-jurisdiction application is seamless and raises no questions?

Lynn wrote:
"Another reason why this is illegal…"

Legality is all about jurisdiction.

The US don't have jurisdiction, though I am sure they will say they do. Lynn would have us believe the two are the same; all those wonderful legal terms that get used. Why? Because THEIR laws say so. The laws of other countries are superceded by the US's not just within US borders but outside too! Not a bad deal that.

(and don't start with the extradition stuff we went over that (until you abrubtly bailed out) – the US still need to request authority and that will only be given if – IF – the country at least agree proof has been shown, and despite examples it is NOT a given. You make it sound like the US can just stroll in with brute force and …actually…hang on a minute…)

Lynn wrote:
"It makes no difference what Jack claims, what I say, or for that matter what anyone else says, until the laws are changed this is the law."

What? THE law?
lol, not that the US would want to be accused of being insular. They can make up as many rules as they like Lynn, in a sense no-one else is playing. Why am I thinking of the World Series.

Lynn wrote:
"And yet, according to Jack, I have not provided any proof that PTVPartner is a scam. "

No you haven't, and you still haven't. Just like PTV you haven't proven your claim. You have provided a story just like PTV, some might say a good story just like PTV, some of it might even end up true just like PTV, but we both know it's not proof.

Please provide proof of your claim Lynn. In the meantime it's not right you mislead people into thinking you know what you claim. If you did know you would have presented proof by now, and you haven't.

Paul wrote:
So your getting down to "attack the messenger."

Sorry about that Paul, me and my analogies again. Anyway, nice site, you going for the record page scroll?

Paul wrote:
"You know you are completely wrong about the burden of proof here and you refuse to accept that."

Let's agree to disagree. I just think that a claim made so strongly like PTV's or Lynn's should carry the weight of having to show proof of that claim. So both have a burden, I might even accept to different levels, and possibly for different reasons. But a claim's a claim. So prove it.

Mikey wrote (in continuing the theme of my tortured English I think Mikey fits rather well):
"Uh, so it is too hard or impossible for PTV to show us the mine…?"

Neither, but I can see where your quesion is coming from and I think it is fair. Are you suggesting there couldn't be any reasons for making such information private? I can think of at least one, and that's without really thinking (if you know what I mean).

Mikey wrote:
"We don't prove one proposition or the other, we judge which is more probable given the available evidence."

Fair enough. "available evidence", good phrase that…

Mikey wrotes again:
"We only need to judge which is more probable: PTV is a scam or PTV is the owner of a mine.
So from the rational judgment point of view, we need only decide which statement is more likely."

I agree. But what if you are not considering all applicable statements? I mean what if you have unintentionally or otherwise been selective in the statements. Does that change things? You know, leaving out parameters and variables, even ones you might not even know about. Does that risk introducing prejudice that might be considered unacceptable?

Also, does PTV own a mine? If you are factually incorrect does that count as being important in a scientific argument or rational discussion?

Just how important are incorrect data and flawed methodology when attempting a rational approach?

Michael wrote:
"@Jack, if you have some alternative theory of proof, I would be happy to hear it."

Michael I have no theory of proof to offer, it is beyond me. Perhaps one is as elusive as your own theory demonstrates, and that we will only know in the fullness of time. Or maybe sooner if PTV or Lynn can provide something to match their respective claims. Until then exercise caution on the former, and be careful not to be misled by the latter.

Garrett & PTVPartner’s Magical Silica Mine:

Not sure how many of you have heard Garrett describe PTVPartner’s magical mine, but here are just some of the highlights of Garrett’s statements:

This mine is 10 miles long, 2.5 miles wide, and has a depth of silica from 500 feet to over 1,500 feet according to Garrett. Of course this mine’s location cannot be revealed; but they have had geologists from all over the world there taking core samples. Of note is the geologist from China who claims the owner of this mine will control the world’s market in silica. They were so excited about the quality of this silica, if they couldn’t buy it, they would fund the entire operation just so it could be mined.

Now top and think about that last statement, put into context of Garrett’s statement that he has to raise $10 Million dollars for this project. So he has China, who is willing to fund the entire cost to mine the silica, but he would prefer to offer you that chance instead. He could have all the money he needed immediately, but yet he prefers to have this money raised over an extended period of time through investors like you. Not too an astute of a businessman, contrary to what he claims.

Garrett claims that China is one of the largest suppliers of silica in the world, but according to Garrett their silica is only 55%-60% pure. Yet this mine’s silica is 97%-99% pure. All the other silica available is only 45%-50% pure, thus why this mine’s silica will be in such high demand. Sounds impressive doesn’t it. Only one problem, silica mines right here in the good ole USofA produce silica that is 99% pure. So much for Garrett’s claim they are the only mine that has this level of purity compared to all the other mines in the world. In fact the largest producer of this 99% silica is in Ohio. As far as China being one of the largest suppliers’ of silica that is 55% – 60% pure, it is silica gel, which for that type of silica is very pure. And this mine does not have silica gel. Dubai is the largest producer of sand silica in case you were wondering.

Cultured quartz is not a mined mineral commodity. Rather, it is synthetically produced from natural feedstock quartz, termed lascas, which is mined. Quartz technology could face competition in the near future with the advent of more cost effective microelectromechanical systems (MEMS). Actually the demand for many different types of silica has gone down in the past year, not up.

So Garrett claims their silica is superior to everyone else’s silica, and yet right here in the US we have over 50 mines that produce 99% pure silica. But the story gets even better.

Garrett states that this mine also has iron, zinc, gold, platinum, palladium, and quartzite. He also claims that quartzite has a value of $3,800 per ton, and it only costs $50 per ton to mine. Actually it is metric tons, but I guess Garrett forgot that point. Here’s another problem of Garrett’s. The world price of quartzite per metric ton is worth anywhere from $500 – $1450 per metric ton. I guess Garrett got carried away in his excitement claiming it was worth $3,800 per metric ton. But his exaggeration doesn’t end there. He also claimed that refined silica fetches $500 – $6,800 per metric ton, which is also wrong because the value is $180-$500 per metric ton.

Now back to the claim that iron, zinc, gold, platinum, palladium and quartzite is all in this same mine. Ask any geologist and they will tell you that gold and platinum group metals are not found in the same location. Don’t you just hate it when all these facts get in the way of a good lie?

As for the gold that is in this mine, Garrett claims the gold vein contains at least 8 million ounces of gold, maybe more. The largest gold mines only have about ½ ounce of gold per ton, yet this mine has over 8 million ounces of gold. Let that sink in. A mine that contains this much gold would represent one of the richest finds of the century, but yet it is a deep dark secret where this mine is located. Garrett said geologists from all over the world have seen and visited this mine, taken core samples, but it remains a deep dark secret where it is located.

Before any mining can take place, and Garrett says this mine is already producing silica as this is how you are receiving your return on your investment; requires that an EIR be filed and approved; and no it is not just a US requirement. In case you don’t know what an EIR is, it is an Environmental Impact Report and must receive approval before one shovel can hit the ground. It also means that the mine must be registered, and all the information about the mine must be included in this registration. This means the estimated volume of the silica, its purity, location, registered owners, surety bonds in place, etc.. In fact, there is a laundry list of reports, applications, permits, etc. must be done before one shovel hits the ground. Yet with all these applications, reports, and registrations, the location of the mine is a deep dark secret.

But it gets even better. In addition to all the minerals that are located in this mine besides silica and quartzite, they also have geothermal energy, and of course they will build a geothermal power plant to provide all the power to the city they are going to have to build there to mine the silica, and all the other minerals they claim are there. They will need to build houses, apartments, hospitals, refinery, schools, rail lines, stores, provide security, etc, and according to Garrett this is how they will provide the necessary electricity and power for all of this infrastructure.. Another problem with all of this: Geothermal energy power plants have heated underground fluids. Silica clogs pipes, wells, and heat exchangers. This problem can be resolved, but at a tremendous added cost. A point that Garrett conveniently omits from his story/sales pitch. But Garrett is right about one thing. They will need a hospital to treat the workers for the diseases they will get from mining silica. Hope they have high value indemnity insurance policies for all the medical claims they will have.

Garrett also went on to say how they had to post a reclamation bond on this mine. In case you don’t know what a reclamation bond is, it means that when all the mining is done and the mine is shut down, the land must be reclaimed…returned to its original state. This means all those rail lines have to be removed, all the houses, apartment buildings, refinery, hospitals, schools, stores, streets, lights, saw mill power plant, have to be torn down as if they never were there. Yes, they have to replant all those trees they cut down to build this infrastructure, put back all the grass, and fill the hole they dug while mining with dirt. Think this might have an impact on the return on investment?

Actually I kept waiting for Garrett to announce they had also found diamonds in the river that runs along this mine location, as well as oil. About the only things they don’t have at this mine. The notion that the location cannot be revealed is ludicrous.

Garrett wants you to believe this mine is the mine to end all mines. The demand for their silica alone is worth trillions of dollars. The mine is already producing, according to Garrett, yet for a mine of this magnitude, it does not show up on any geological report or mining statistical reports of the production of silica anywhere. Yes indeed, it is truly a magical mine. Only a select few know where it is, it is producing silica that cannot be traced, it is the only mine with this pure of silica anywhere (well except for Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Montana, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada).

Now there is a whole lot more that Garrett claimed about this magical mine, but I hope you can see through the utter BS of his claims, and no such mine exists. Here are the facts: If it did, it would be in every mining magazine in the world if it was as Garrett claims. 99% pure silica is not the exception, but the rule in the vast majority of silica mining. Gold and Platinum cannot be found in the same area let alone the same mine. The gold that Garrett claims is there would exceed the major gold mining companies in the world, yet it is a deep dark secret.

PTVPartner is a scam, and not even a very good one. It is just a matter of time before they disappear. It is not a question of “IF,” but “WHEN.”

Lynn, you've misquoted and or mis-interpreted on a few key points but lots of good point too. Also, where you quote that kind of data, pricing, etc you should cite references. What's stopping someone else turning around and doing the same thing and saying actually no its $5000 a ton or whatever?

Lynn wrote:
"silica mines right here in the good ole USofA produce silica that is 99% pure."

Could you clarify please. Are you saying it is 99% pure untreated (eg the ore is 99% mineral) or 99% pure after being produced? Mines are supposed to produce a pure product if you know what I mean. Would also appreciate the name of one of the Ohio mines, thanks.

Lynn wrote:
"Actually it is metric tons, but I guess Garrett forgot that point."

What's the difference? Ton is commonly used to mean metric ton is it not?. Aren't the two interchangeable?

Lynn wrote:
"Ask any geologist and they will tell you that gold and platinum group metals are not found in the same location."

This is incorrect and a little misleading. The field of geology is so extensive that not just "any" geologist would be able to give an accurate, confident, and official answer. You must also define location in terms of extent and the metals in terms of deposit concentration. Many minerals exist in very close proximity to each other at varying concentrations. But I think it's accurate to say gold platinum mines do not exist. Not sure Garrett is saying that's what we have though. Certainly, the details need to be checked and warrant further research.

Lynn wrote:
"But Garrett is right about one thing. They will need a hospital to treat the workers for the diseases they will get from mining silica. Hope they have high value indemnity insurance policies for all the medical claims they will have."

Getting a bit carried away there Lynn. No need, I enjoyed your comments on the gold and the EIR. Worthy of further checks for sure.

Lynn wrote:
"Yes, they have to replant all those trees they cut down to build this infrastructure, put back all the grass, and fill the hole they dug while mining with dirt. Think this might have an impact on the return on investment?"

Of course it will. What's your point? I think most if not all mines do this, it is not a prohibitive factor. This sort of thing is considered at the planning stage, no? So all numbers that follow take into account this "impact" you refer to. Also, does the land have to be returned to exactly the same condition? There tends to be a bit of a hole left with this type of activity!

Lynn, unfortunatley we cannot present your latest post as proof, as good a read as it is. In the end all those words may be irrelevant because all that glitters is not necessarily gold, or silica for that matter.

Try not to get too one-dimensional. I respect your commitment to what you believe, but believing and knowing are two different things.

Lynn wrote:
"PTVPartner is a scam, and not even a very good one. It is just a matter of time before they disappear. It is not a question of “IF,” but “WHEN.”"

You could ultimately be correct but at the moment you don't know for sure. Actually, we're all still quite a way from there. There are important points you have yet to realise Lynn (or at least demonstrate realisation) let alone address. Once you attain a better balance then we may begin to attribute better accuracy to your conclusions.

In the meantime why not temper it down to PTV looks like it could be a scam, advise caution, give your thoughts, allow others to give theirs if they happen to feel otherwise? I could go with that. You leave yourself open with such definitive statements from an incomplete argument and no proof. It's too fanatical, too unconditional, for what you have, for what you have presented so far, for what is currently avaialable. What's that quote from Hamlet again?

Jack: I will post the information when Garrett posts his real address and phone number, who is behind PTVPartners, and where the mine is located. In the meantime actually do some investigative work on your own so you know the information is real; instead of relying on me, whom you do not trust to provide the information. It is out there and easily found. So get off your assets and actually find out for yourself. Here's a hint….try Google.

One more thing. As far as information out there about PTVPartner being real, a good place to start would be for PTVPartner to post it on PTVPartner's own website. But don't hold your breath because they can't.

PTVPPartner is a scam. No need to temper anything. The magical mine does not exist.

For those of you who are interested in listening to Garrett's discussion of the magical silica mine, here is the link:

https://www.ptvpartner.com/flash/mp3/mp3_xml_multi.swf.

Two things you need to know. To the right of the picture you will see the 3 arrows. You need to click on the second arrow, and then look to the top of the link and make sure it says silica mine. It is about 27 minutes long. Then click play. There is also a second recording that is 57 minutes long. Again click on the arrow until you see silica 2 at the top of the link, then hit play. If you hear the ocean or birds, you have to click on the arrow to get to the audio tracks of his recording.

I will warn you that the first 12-13 minutes is a lot of nonsense about PTVPartner, why he formed it, etc., before he begins telling about the mine. You can also hear how he is going to have a section on how to do due diligence on the blog. Wait, the blog has disappeared, so I guess since it is coming back soon, you will have to wait to see what he says is due diligence.

Lynn wrote:
"I will post the information when Garrett posts his real address and phone number, who is behind PTVPartners, and where the mine is located."

As I've indicated all along you're both the same in claim and behaviour.

Lynn wrote:
"In the meantime actually do some investigative work on your own so you know the information is real; instead of relying on me, whom you do not trust to provide the information. It is out there and easily found. So get off your assets and actually find out for yourself. Here's a hint….try Google."

What makes you think I haven't? Because I asked? lol, none so blind. What I have found and what I already know renders your geology claims moot at best. Back on familiar territory aren't we?.

Silica is an umbrella term, it has many forms – quartz for example, which itself exists in different forms. Quartzite is not necessarily metamorphic, therefore different types. Not to mention the differing concentrations and purities of each form. How is each mineral represented with respect to deposit and ore? All this and more affects price range and interpretation of statements which must be specific in their claim. EIR's are not global and they're certainly not uniform, either in content or application. And on it goes.

Not only are you not specific in your claims but you won't even say where the info comes from ("I found it on Google!" I hear you say).

Too basic, open to interpretation, and selective info presentation. Geology is a science that has no room for your vague and unsubstantiated claims on the specific geology and associated economy of a supposed mine.

"Search Google" is not an answer let alone getting anywhere near any semblance of proof.

Your departure from adherence to standard practice and conventional thinking and process by firstly not citing references and secondly not remedying when you had the chance is questionable if not suspicious. Why now?

So your information as provided is spurious. Questions remain over the existence of a PTV mine just as they do over the information you provide and more importantly your motive.

Lynn wrote:
"PTVPPartner is a scam. No need to temper anything. The magical mine does not exist."

Prove it. I've just wiped the floor with what you've brought to the table and you're not even taking the opportunity to cite references. Lazy, or hidden agenda?

PTV could be a scam but you're a long way from proving it on this form. No mine equals scam? We haven't even got to that yet. You're not even trying, are you?

Why would you disguise your voice if you where known for being someone
who did good? If you where known for doing bad and enough people new about it then it would make sense,, period. Nice one L,, you got patience

Jack returns with gems like this:

"Your departure from adherence to standard practice and conventional thinking and process by firstly not citing references and secondly not remedying when you had the chance is questionable if not suspicious. Why now?"

Jack, what is your first language?

Where did you learn English?

We really do need to shut down that school and get you a rebate if you paid anything.

@Lynndel 'Lynn' Edgington: writes "So he has China, who is willing to fund the entire cost to mine the silica, but he would prefer to offer you that chance instead. He could have all the money he needed immediately, but yet he prefers to have this money raised over an extended period of time through investors like you. Not too an astute of a businessman, contrary to what he claims."
This is exactly right – the flaw in all fraud schemes.
If there was such a mine, then G could get all the funding he wanted at a cheaper price from a bank.
G is claiming to pay you a % for a loan far in excess of what he would have to pay a bank or even a factoring company.
Silly G.

Jack: In regard to this statement of yours, and I quote: "As I've indicated all along you're both the same in claim and behaviour." There is one major difference. Garrett is the one who is taking people's money, not me. I am just exposing his lies. Besides my NDA prevents me from disclosing my sources.

OK, I'll retract that PTVPartner is a scam. Actually it is a classic Ponzi, as it requires new money to pay for the early ones in and so on and so on. Scam or Ponzi, PTVPartner is still illegal, Garrett is a liar, and it won't be long until PTVPartner joins GNI and Genius Funds in the toilet. I know that I have retracted that PTVPartner is a scam will make Jack really happy. Not sure about me calling it what it is a classic Ponzi. Somehow I don't think Jack will be too pleased with me calling it a classic Ponzi. Oh well, the truth hurts.

Speaking of GNI and Genius Funds. I think Garrett just might be the admin of both of these programs as well. Each Admin claims they wanted to provide a real HYIP Program, and all claimed they were the most honest, the most real of all the HYIP programs, and will be around for a long time. So much for Garrett's original program BS.

One of the reason why I posted the link to the audio was for everyone to hear Garrett tell about how China would have funded the entire project, but he chose instead to pay everyone up to 190% return for their investment into the silica mine project. As Michael has so eloquently pointed out, Garrett could have gotten the money from a bank much cheaper than from the investors, let alone cheaper from China. So much for his astute business knowledge and acumen, as well as the people behind PTV. What a tool.

Guess you were able to find the name of the mine in Ohio. I knew you could do it if you just tried. I am fully aware of all the various types of Quartz, Quartzite, silica, and their derivative products. I also know the purity grade of each type. Obviously Garrett has no clue, which makes his claims their silica mine is the only one with purity of 97-99% more ridiculous. Just so you know, when you take geology classes in coillege, they teach you that gold and platinum cannot be found in the same location. Now whether or not they remember it is another story.

Garrett is the one who is asking for people to give him hundreds and thousands of dollars without disclosing what he is doing with the money. But if there are any of you who wish to give hundreds and thousands of dollars to Eagle, we will be honored to accept the donations. Just think, instead of losing your money to a Ponzi, you can donate to Eagle, get a tax deduction, and help put an end to Internet investment fraud like PTVPartner; as well as putting people like Garrett in prison where they belong. Plus knowing you helped clean up the Internet from Internet investment fraud. And you will receive full disclosure about your donation. Just pointing out the differences between Eagle and PTVPartner.

What ever happened to MrMegaWealth? Seems he has disappeared all of a sudden. Wonder if exposing his lies (must be related to Garrett) about his Lambo being fake had anything to do with it? LOL!

Since Jack has loved all my other posts up till now, I am sure he will really love this next one. That is if I can find the time to do so. It will just expose more of Garrett's lies about this magical silica mine, and how PTVPartner is a classic Ponzi.

Lynn wrote:
"Jack: In regard to this statement of yours, and I quote: "As I've indicated all along you're both the same in claim and behaviour." There is one major difference. Garrett is the one who is taking people's money, not me."

I never said you did. Why do you obfuscate (look it up Michael)? I said you claim that PTV is a scam yet you continually fail to provide proof. If it's that obvious prove it. That's all. Where's your proof?

Your geology statements are wrong.

Your PTV interpretations are flawed, mostly just plain wrong.

Your legal postion is wrong.

You twist people's words, say they said things that they never did. You mislead. You corrupt basic statements.

Why? We have a stick-on classic ponzi scam staring us all right in the face.

We should be knee deep in proof from you.

And how much proof have you given us?

None.

How about some proof? Simple proof. If you provide proof I really won't be upset or offended, I welcome it. Your next post? Go for it, it could be the one. Heck, you need it.

In the meantime stop telling people you know things that you clearly don't.

Jack:

In regard to these statements of yours: Your geology statements are wrong. Your PTV interpretations are flawed, mostly just plain wrong.
Your legal postion is wrong. You twist people's words, say they said things that they never did. You mislead. You corrupt basic statements.

Prove it, just don't say it. You do have the facts to prove it, right? So bring it on. PROVE IT. Wait, you just did what you are accusing me of making claims without any proof. Too funny.

PTVPartner is a Ponzi. Garrett is a liar. PTVPartner is not authorized to sell securities in the US, and Garrett is not a licensed broker. It makes no difference where PTVPartner is located. Being offshore is a MYTH and a LIE as long as you are selling investments to US CItizens.

I think the people listening to Garrett, in his own words, can decide for themselves if I have misrepresented or misinterpreted his comments. It is why I posted the link for all of them to hear him for themselves.

Still trying to defend this Ponzi, while trying to claim you're not. But keep posting because you are doing far more damage to PTVPartner than I am doing.

What you seem to want to overlook, but you really do know it, is that I am being sarcastic with you, and exposing all your double-speak and psycho-babble. See you keep saying I have to prove everything, while at the same time not demanding the same things from Garrett. Your weak attempt is to say since I am the one saying it is a Ponzi, I have to prove it. Well, I have proven it, you just don't accept the proof. None of you shills ever accept the proof. To do so shows you have been lying from the beginning. I have yet to have one shill ever admit to the proof, and you are no exception.

Garrett really did say that the Chinese wanted to buy the whole operation, but he refused, He did say that the Chinese then offered to pay all the costs for the development of the mine and infrastucutre, but he refused because he wanted to offer this to the HYIP people, and pay up to 190% return on their investment. So are you saying this is a lie? Sure sounds like it to me.

You really are a one-trick pony. Did I mention that PTVPartner is a PONZI and Garrett is a liar? If not, it is a PONZI and Garrett is a liar. Glad I could clear that up for you.

Jack knows big English words, but continues to write things like:

"As I've indicated all along you're both the same in claim and behaviour".

The syntax is crazy, while the spelling is oddly English/Canadian.

But how about it Jack: why would anyone lend PTV money if PTV could get the money cheaper from the bank?

Jack:

In Geology class 101, here is what the students learn about minerals:

Students in lab will be required to do the following:
1. MINERALS
• Identify common mineral samples based on mineral identification tables and important physical properties.
• Distinguish between rocks and minerals.
• Recognize crystal form.
• Distinguish between cleavage and fracture, and recognize cleavage types.
• Determine the luster, streak, approximate density, diaphaneity, and tenacity of common mineral samples.
• Determine the hardness of common mineral samples using reference minerals (Mohs scale) or relative to a glass plate.
• Recognize other physical properties that are important in the identification of some minerals.
a. Taste
b. Reaction to Hydrochloric Acid
c. Striations 10
d. Magnetism
e. Double refraction
f. Feel
g. Odor
• Know the important uses for common minerals studied in lab.
• Know the compositional groups for common minerals studied in lab.
a. Carbonates
b. Halides
c. Native elements
d. Oxides
e. Silicates (Ferromagnesian and Non-ferromagnesian)
f. Sulfates
g. Sulfides

Also these mandatory classes:

Required General Education (13 credits)
Chem 201 General Chemistry I (5)
Phys 211 General Physics I (4)
Math 121 Calculus I (4)
Core Courses (22 credits)
Geol 121 Physical Geology (4)
Geol 122 Earth History (4)
Geol 201 Mineralogy (4)
Geol 202 Lithology (3)
Geol 320 Sedimentology and Stratigraphy (3)
Geol 330 Structural Geology (4)

Now guess what they teach in Physical Geology and Mineralogy? It is not until the Junior year do the students start specializing in classes of their particular field of study of geology they wish to pursue.